Am I an artist???

I think I am correct in posting this thread in this section of the forum... if not, I am sure it will be moved!! (sorry for the extra work)

I spend most of my time on this forum in the Photo Critique section, reading as well as commenting whenever I can or feel i need to... Many discussions have started there, that were later taken up on some other section of the forum.

From the snapshot to the professional shot, there are a lot of photos and a lot of info.... it all is simply great.

However, the thing I realized, which is something I mostly suffer from (well, i have been getting over it lately) is that there is no purpose to what we do. We go out and take technical shots... or rather try to anyway... and then post for critique or simply sharing...

Does the intent, the purpose and/or theme of the photo make me an artist?? or is it something else?

I am not trying to dive into the question of "what is art?" but rather simply point out that there is not project... no direction to most of the shots...

Most of the shots posted (including my own) are experienced snapshots.... of course there are exceptions... but i am referring to most.... We pass by a location... we like what we see... go there (either directly or later on)... set up... work the scene... and click.... Great exposure... Great composition... Great shot... Here, there was opportunity and theme... maybe a little purpose too...

Yet, a professional, as far as I am concerned, would have the pre-planning phase first.... granted, serendipity is a factor always.... but mostly, the professional artist will have Intent - Purpose and Theme....

In other words, a painter, professional or amateur, will take his/her time while painting, and will mostly have Intent - Purpose and Theme in mind... They are artists.... the only question will be whether they are professional or not?

So, if I take photos (most of them) just as they become available, or mostly just dedicate a day to go and shoot a location... Am I an artist or not?

Does this make sense??

I've only commented a few times (once?) in this forum as I feel that I am not qualified to do so - having never been formally "trained" in Art or, for that matter, not recognizing many of the names of the Great Artists mentioned so often here.

That said, it seems to me that words like Art, Professional, Amateur, etc. are all simply a point of view. All gray, all ambiguous.

I consider myself just a photographer - and a part time one at that. I laugh (to myself) when people ask me, while I'm photographing, if I'm a "professional". I want to say "maybe". I'm sure my answer to them affects their preception of what I'm doing at the time. Whenever I drop off a load of prints to be sold, I'm referred to as an Artist. I've never felt like an artist (whatever that feels like). Just someone who likes to take pretty or funny images.

There are a lot more superb athletes than there are professional ones. They are all athletes in my book. There are a lot of so called amateur photographers than there are professional ones. Some darn good ones fall into the former category. Perhaps they just don't like the marketing/business aspects to make them a professional.

As for Purpose and Theme, I think a lot (perhaps most?) of great images come from sheer happenstance. There are hordes of photographers stalking the South for the thought-to-be-extinct Ivory-billed woodpecker. Heavy on the Purpose. I'd laugh my head off when some local takes a pretty image of what he thinks is just another woodpecker on his deck with a point-and-shoot. Only to find later that he is sitting on a million dollar image and he has instantly been propelled to Professional Photographer ranks without him even knowing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarcusK

Does the intent, the purpose and/or theme of the photo make me an artist?? or is it something else?...

---

First off, this is absolutely the right place to discuss this. Good topic, too...

The answer to your question is YES. Both parts, hah hah! An artist often has intent (or pre-visualization, if you want to sound snooty). Or it can be something else.

Loupey gives a real good response to your questions, as being an artist is the most ambiguous of titles. There's Artist with a capital "A", and artist with a small "a".

It's all about perception, both how you perceive yourself, and how you want others to perceive you.

IMO, anyone who does anything even remotely creative is an artist, and with photography that creativity can be either spontaneous or well-planned and thought out. You know, the ends justify the means.

It's only when commerce, career, and marketing enter the picture that individuals really start to worry about whether others consider them an "artist" or not. And, of course, the self-doubt when you are trying to compete in a profession and are not sure if you measure up to others.

Steve - Loupey, Thanks....

My Definitions:

Professional: "Anyone who gets paid for what they do"

Amateur: "Someone who does not get paid for what they do, or someone who still is in the early learning process" (since I don't believe we ever stop learning)

Artist: "Someone who (like Steve said) does something creative... furthermore, being an artist is a state of mind"

I agree with you both, and what madde me ask the question, was this feeling of wandering that I been having for a while, that I also have been seeing lately around here...

Granted that the most interesting photos are mere happenstance, but are they only that?

When I ask "Am I an artist?", it is not necessarily the work itself that I am referring to, but the whole package...The attitude, and state of mind of an artist...

Now Steve, you mentioned "Artist v/s artist", I refer to artist v/s artiste (french word, spoken in english with a french accent).... The people who think that by behaving like the cliche image of an artist makes them artists themselves...

Sticking to the ones we care about, artists, they have a certain approach to a photo that is different from others (non artists)... Even photographers who are on vacation with family and friends, although they may take better pictures than the average person, will still not come out (mostly) with artistic pictures... just good ones or even great ones...

The intent, purpose and theme, don't necessarily need to be something you do as an artist or photographer, but rather something you see and feel in the photo itsself.... even if it were mere chance that you stumbled unto the picture... you can still see them...

Our approach to a photo, IMO, should be one where, you are focused on nothing but that shot... your mind is racing to capture it.... everything else seems to blur.... (of course this is a bit extreme, but i am simply trying to clarify).... So when for example,while camping, I stumble upon a beautiful scene, I take with not being simply an Educated snapshooter, but rather, an artist...creating a work of art.... be able to pass judgement on the shot more than simply saying...oooooo, i wanna show my friends this one! or I wonder what they would say in the Photo Critique section of the my favorite forum (this one of course)....

On the other end of the scope, Loupey you made a hilarious point regarding the woodpecker... Sometimes things are pushed to a ridiculous extreme, and I personally believe that this an unfortunate side effect of "professional" life... where the obsession with making the money and getting recognition, which in itself will bring financial rewards, surpersedes all else...

In asking "am i an artist?", I am wondering, am I a photography enthusiast sitting at home sharing the album with my friends? Or am i a photographer, who in the hopes of ever improving his work (at whatever level one may be at), is sharing for critique as much as (hopefully) inspirational purposes??

So... Am i an artist, or just a show off?? (that's a bit harsh... but had to say it!)

When I landed my prints in the local art gallery and the guy that runs the place told me it was up to the "Artist" to decide what prints gets in once accepted. It felt good to be called an Artist. I say yes Marcus you are.

Everyone is an artist just as everyone is a salesman. Some people create with food, others with music, some with pencil and paints, and still others with cloth, nuts-and-bolts, and so on. So the thought that someone would point to someone else and say "he/she's an Artist" seems rather odd to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarcusK

Our approach to a photo, IMO, should be one where, you are focused on nothing but that shot... your mind is racing to capture it.... everything else seems to blur.... (of course this is a bit extreme, but i am simply trying to clarify)....

---

But everyone is so different in their approach. The state of mind of a photographer when an image is captured is irrelevant IMHO. Using music as an example, I have to work really hard and concentrate like crazy to make music sound appealing while others can do it by second nature. But photography comes easy to me partly because I feel I can see things hidden in plain sight (I'm a nature shooter btw). A comedian might get his ideas and punch lines in his sleep. A writer might overcome writers' block by playing hop scotch. The results never reveal the method. Every photographer uses different mental strategies to get the image.

I've always considered myself a photographic "technician", not artist. Always using my basic knowledge of the fundamentals along with simple hand-eye coordination to get the shot. Relying on calculations of macro magnifications, inverse-squared law computations, and plain mechanical operation - never some mysterious Artistic Knowledge.

I think an effective photographer is one who can take any opportunity - whether it is a family vacation or a dedicated photo excursion - and come away with images which affects the viewer. It doesn't take an Artist to do that.

Speaking only from personal experience and not of anyone here, those who claim they are an Artist (with a capital "A") have never been people I cared to be around.

This has been a good discusssion. Thank you.

Quote:

---

So the thought that someone would point to someone else and say "he/she's an Artist" seems rather odd to me.

---

Well that seems odd to me too (is weird considered politically incorrect?)... The question for me remains internal... it is simply something I am asking myself, and well, now am thinking out loud (so to speak) with you here....

The state of mind will differ because of human nature... we are all unique in our own ways, so there will definitely be difference, and the relevance of the photographer's state of mind for me I hoped to illustrate with the example of vacation shots... When you take a moment to take the shot, as in pose and try to find an angle... it falls under what I refer to as art (considering of course, as you said, it affects people)... but when the state of mind is measuring the appropriate elements (such as in your case the mathematical approach which is quite impressive btw) then we are no longer just recording the event, but creating a memory.

Quote:

---

Relying on calculations of macro magnifications, inverse-squared law computations, and plain mechanical operation - never some mysterious Artistic Knowledge.

---

:D

Mysterious Artistic Knowledge.... isn't that simply reached or acquired with experience? After all the proper "technical" shots that you have taken, you have received an equal, or rather greater number of input from people. That alone, should have increased a certain "artistic" awareness in you!

That being said, I agree as well, that an effective photographer can take any opportunity, but that brings us back to the state of mind of the photographer... I dunno about you, but personally, I metamorphose whenever I get a camera in my hands (either my own, or when out at a party or somewhere, someone hands me their camera... point-&-shoot or SLR)... I suddenly no longer am a passer-by but a photographer.... even if the final shot will not make it into an exhibition... Would it be safe to presume that when you have a camera in your hands, you suddenly start calculating?

You never cared to be around self proclaimed Artists (with a capital "A")... I hate being around them...

In an extra effort to elaborate on the "artistic" state of mind, I met a photographer here, Joe... we were in his studio, shooting (a collegue of his was shooting a project for my company)... As we stood observing his degrees and awards, and certificates... he looks from his laptop, chuckles and says..." don't bother, they're all downloaded from the net!!" My respect for the man suddenly sky rocketed... he has done so much, yet for him it meant nothing.... well.... he didn't much care for them! I can't imagine myself walking around and saying: "Oh.. yes.. I am an Artist...."

After every shoot i do, I always show the photos to a couple of people, and listen to what they have to say.. not even once have i looked at them and said: "Pfffff... well what do you know? you're not an artist??? I AM!!!!"

But, either way, am i an artist?

I do realize that with this question is the attempt to define what is meant by artist... more specifically than we may have already done...

Could we say then, that the artist, is someone, using whichever tools he/she is comfortable using, creates something which inadvertently affects the viewers??

This indeed has been a good discussion... thank you for taking the time!

Greg, I am sure it was thrilling to have your prints in the exhibition... if only for a sense of achievement and self fulfillment!

Thanks for the vote of confidence....

Question 1: If a greater awareness of the actual photographic process is required/expended, does that alone make it more of an artistic endeavor?
If you used a totally manual film camera, would you consider yourself more artistic in your approach than when you are using a digital SLR with some automated features?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarcusK

Could we say then, that the artist, is someone, using whichever tools he/she is comfortable using, creates something which inadvertently affects the viewers??

---

We can think of ourselves whatever we want but it's our actions which define how others see us. We don't go out saying to ourselves, "I'm going to be a jerk today" or "I'm going to be a good person tomorrow". We just do. Didn't some of the famous painters live meager, uneventful lives and only became Artists after their work was discovered after their death? Don't know if they considered themselves as artists, or even successful for that matter.

Question 2 - for no one in particular and everyone in general: Have you noticed that certain photographic groups aren't referred to as Art? Namely wildlife, photojournalism, product, and sports. Photographers in these groups are rarely (if ever) called Artists and I bet many of them don't think of themselves as Artists. I wonder why? My guess is that if a photograph says something very specific like those produced by those above, it is classified by others as such. However, if the image says something vague (like an abstract) and it is not easily classified, people tend to refer to that work as art. Those photographers, I assume, start to think of themselves as Artists after hearing other people say that one too many times. :)

Answer 1: A greater awareness of the process, IMO, makes for a more controlled and/or experienced endeavor. Said awareness for me is an "abstract" tool that we use. Using a SLR or DSLR is the same when it comes to the end result, which is the work, and both are simply 2 different tools. So no, I do not necessarily find it more artistic.

Quote:

---

We can think of ourselves whatever we want but it's our actions which define how others see us. We don't go out saying to ourselves, "I'm going to be a jerk today" or "I'm going to be a good person tomorrow". We just do. Didn't some of the famous painters live meager, uneventful lives and only became Artists after their work was discovered after their death? Don't know if they considered themselves as artists, or even successful for that matter.

---

We could then, as far as we have come along here, say that what defines us as artists, is people... which pretty much answers my question about affecting the viewers, that to a certain extent, it is. Of all the past Artists, when I read about them, looking at how they lived their lives, you realize they had common traits... and these traits are the ones that the wanna-be artists (Artiste) try to replicate in their lives to pass of as artists... which I find ridiculous.

Answer 2: Yes, I have, and that is a very good point to make here. I guess since there is a certain ease of access to these particular areas, that such photographers, are rarely called or referred to as Artists. Personally however, I think it is because abstracts (for example) are not so easy to produce by the public, whereas the rest, people "think" they can achieve them easily, or even replicate them. I have realized lately, by discussing some artistic issues with my friends, that they only appreciate, or give due credit, whenever the work they see, they can not do.... that comment of: "Pff, I can do that", seems to be the defining feature for them of whether they are viewing (or even listening) to the work of an artist or not.

Basically, I find that, whenever someone is truly an artist (in the absolute sense, no need to it being said or pointed out), they really don't care about the naming process, of how they are viewed... such people, could also, IMO, be business people, engineers, mechanics....etc... they just do what they do.... and they do it well and beautifully.

Now, when take a look around in the forum, at all the images posted... some have that little extra something, and I am not referring to the great images only here.. the ones that make it as feature photos, but other images that go unnoticed as well... Yet, most other images, seem to be just photos. I guess what made me ask the question in the first place, was more of a question to see if we could not be more about the photography rather than the "fame".... by asking "am I an artist?" I was trying to get as many people as possible (all of them?) to ask themselves this question without really answering it...

Although I do walk around telling people "I am a creative genius"... it is more for the fun of it ( I love hearing it) than anything else. I don't go about telling people.. "Oh yes... you see those photos, well that's because I am an artisst"... As a matter of fact, I got into many arguments with many friends and acquaintences telling them, that they could do it too (whatever they may be looking at and saying wow).... I believe anyone can be creative, all they need to do, is learn the tools... anyone can be great, I believe this is our destiny.... I never cared for people's opinion of me (I was always looked at as weird... and still am sometimes)... I did what I wanted to do most times, it was socially acceptable, sometimes it is not...

At the end of the day.... Shouldn't we all ask ourselves this question? "Am I an Artist?" or even replace Artist with whatever other word that may relevant to you... WHAT ARE WE DOING?

To keep things relevant to the forum....

Question:
What are we doing?
Are we just taking photographs to share? or did we see or feel something that we thought others should see or feel?
Am I simply remembering the location/event/etc... or do I have a message that I want to send, a story to tell?

I have seen Nature and Wildlife photos all across, be it here or elsewhere... not all of them are photos I can keep coming back to. Some are simple documentation photos, others seem to capture the spirit of the creature, or even the history of the landscape... So what are we doing? Documenting? or are trying to capture all the meaning available in whatever is in front of us?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarcusK

At the end of the day.... Shouldn't we all ask ourselves this question? "Am I an Artist?" or even replace Artist with whatever other word that may relevant to you... WHAT ARE WE DOING?

To keep things relevant to the forum....

Question:
What are we doing?
Are we just taking photographs to share? or did we see or feel something that we thought others should see or feel?
Am I simply remembering the location/event/etc... or do I have a message that I want to send, a story to tell?

---

Seems to me, the reason is simply because it gives us pleasure. For many it is also to seek/give advice. Others may like crossword puzzles, others cross-stitch. For us, seeing something and then capturing that something gives pleasure enough.

Perhaps there is no deeper reason. Perhaps there needs none :)

Yes... true.. Perhaps there is nothing more...

Oh well.. thank you for this conversation... it's been quite enjoyable...