Color management issue...

[Seb]

Hello guys,

As many of you, I am seeking for a color management solution. I have been reading recent treads with great interest but there are few things which I think werent covered yet.

First of all, my budget doesn't allow me to consider GretagMacbeth products. So far it seems that I would have to go with the Monaco EZcolor/Optix xr package or the ColorVision Printfix package.

For what it worths, ColorVision claim that the quality of the results to be expected from scanner based solutions (such Monaco) seriously depend on the quality of the scanner used in the process (which make sense to me). Now, I don't own a flatbed scanner nor have I ever felt a need to own one. If I was choosing the Monaco system, I'd get a scanner at the same time. Moreover, what do you guys think a decent scanner would be?

Also, is there any ColorVision PrintFix owners here? How good/bad is their system? It seems that this system is not very common here. As I understand it, PrintFix does nothing for monitor calibration (it only create profiles for the printer) so I assume that the ColorVision spyder2pro can work along with PrintFix for a total solution right???

Any imput would be greatly appreciated

regards

Seb

[Rick Miller]

Greetings Seb.

An excellent review of Hardware calibration systems can be found at Dry Creek Photo:
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/m...tion_tools.htm

Additionally, consider having a custom profile made for your printer by someone who has the high-end profiling equipment - it might save you some money instead of having to buy the profiling equipment yourself. This will really depend on how often you'll be profiling.

You will still need a monitor calibration system though.

Some places that offer custom printer profiles:
1. Dry Creek Photo (Ethan Hansen)
2. Digital Dog (Andrew Rodney)
3. Nancy Scans (Nancy Olson and John Olson)

I hope this helps.

Cheers!

[Seb]

Greetings Seb.

An excellent review of Hardware calibration systems can be found at Dry Creek Photo:
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/m...tion_tools.htm

Additionally, consider having a custom profile made for your printer by someone who has the high-end profiling equipment - it might save you some money instead of having to buy the profiling equipment yourself. This will really depend on how often you'll be profiling.

You will still need a monitor calibration system though.

Some places that offer custom printer profiles:
1. Dry Creek Photo (Ethan Hansen)
2. Digital Dog (Andrew Rodney)
3. Nancy Scans (Nancy Olson and John Olson)

I hope this helps.

Cheers!

Hello Rick,

Thank you very much for your contribution, it does help! Custom profiles seems very good but the thing is that I don't know how often I will be profiling. The profiling equipement would pay for itself after 3 custom profiles or so. This is something that I will have to figure out but thank you for posting the links.

Seb

[Rick Miller]

Seb.

You're welcome; I'm glad I could be of some assistance.

With respect to scanners, I've found the Epson Perfection 4870 series (PHOTO and PRO) to be excellent scanners. However, if you're just buying the scanner to use with your profile equipment - then a custom built profile will be less expensive (depending on how many papers you'll be profiling). Dry Creek Photo charges $50 per profile, and I think NancyScans charges $40.

What printer will you be profiling?

If I can be of any further assistance, please feel free to let me know.

[Seb]

Seb.

You're welcome; I'm glad I could be of some assistance.

With respect to scanners, I've found the Epson Perfection 4870 series (PHOTO and PRO) to be excellent scanners. However, if you're just buying the scanner to use with your profile equipment - then a custom built profile will be less expensive (depending on how many papers you'll be profiling). Dry Creek Photo charges $50 per profile, and I think NancyScans charges $40.

What printer will you be profiling?

If I can be of any further assistance, please feel free to let me know.

Hello again Rick,

I sincerly apologize for the long delay, I just haven't noticed your reply.
About your question, I have no printer yet but I am set on the Epson 2200. Peter pointed out that a replacement model would be introduced early next year so I will most likely wait a month or two and see what happens.

Custom profiles seems great but I don't understand how they would match with my monitor as I would calibrate it individually (thus my interest for an all in one solution). Am I missing something here??

best regards

Seb

[Michael Fanelli]

Hello again Rick,

I sincerly apologize for the long delay, I just haven't noticed your reply.
About your question, I have no printer yet but I am set on the Epson 2200. Peter pointed out that a replacement model would be introduced early next year so I will most likely wait a month or two and see what happens.

Custom profiles seems great but I don't understand how they would match with my monitor as I would calibrate it individually (thus my interest for an all in one solution). Am I missing something here??

best regards

Seb

I had a custom printer profile made. They provide you with a file that you display in PhotoShop. You are told exactly what to set in the PS opions and preferences. You then display this image on your calibrated monitor and print it out using the instructions they give you. The results go back to them in the mail and they email you back the printer profile. For me, it made a huge difference.

Be aware that each printer/inkset/paper combination needs its own profile.

[Seb]

I had a custom printer profile made. They provide you with a file that you display in PhotoShop. You are told exactly what to set in the PS opions and preferences. You then display this image on your calibrated monitor and print it out using the instructions they give you. The results go back to them in the mail and they email you back the printer profile. For me, it made a huge difference.

Be aware that each printer/inkset/paper combination needs its own profile.

Hello Michael,

Thank you for these informations. Frankly, custom profiles sounds good but then again, it's tricky because I don't know how many kind of paper I will end up using...
I guess that I'll start by geting the printer, use it a little unprofiled and I'll make a final decision later on. Now if that Epson PX-G5000 can only hit our market... I am very curious about that one.

regards

Seb

[Michael Fanelli]

Hello Michael,

Thank you for these informations. Frankly, custom profiles sounds good but then again, it's tricky because I don't know how many kind of paper I will end up using...
I guess that I'll start by geting the printer, use it a little unprofiled and I'll make a final decision later on. Now if that Epson PX-G5000 can only hit our market... I am very curious about that one.

Many printers these days come with a few profiles of some sort. Some people find that these profiles work pretty well. Choose some of these manufacturer profiles first instead of starting out with no profile at all.

[Seb]

Many printers these days come with a few profiles of some sort. Some people find that these profiles work pretty well. Choose some of these manufacturer profiles first instead of starting out with no profile at all.

Actually I meant using the printer without having some "serious" accurately made profiles (I did not expressed myself clearly, my mistake) rather than using it with no profile at all.

Thank you for your attention.

Seb

[gahspidy]

Seb, I have just bought the 2200 (sold the Canon 9900) and after some tweaking, am making great looking prints that I feel match well with what I see on the screen. I have no calibrating equipment other than a good piece of free software called QuickGamma( which from what i have read is better than Adobe gamma). Also, it would be best no matter what you choose to do to only use a few select papers to simplifuy things. I am using Epson premier lustre and will be using a paper from Red River called Premium matt ( a very thick archive matt paper) which has had great reviews from many epson 2200 users. This company provides icc profiles for all their papers that are compatable with the 2200 for free. Also have great tips on printing. visit their site at RedRiverpaper.com

[Seb]

Seb, I have just bought the 2200 (sold the Canon 9900) and after some tweaking, am making great looking prints that I feel match well with what I see on the screen. I have no calibrating equipment other than a good piece of free software called QuickGamma( which from what i have read is better than Adobe gamma). Also, it would be best no matter what you choose to do to only use a few select papers to simplifuy things. I am using Epson premier lustre and will be using a paper from Red River called Premium matt ( a very thick archive matt paper) which has had great reviews from many epson 2200 users. This company provides icc profiles for all their papers that are compatable with the 2200 for free. Also have great tips on printing. visit their site at RedRiverpaper.com

Gary, Thank you for your imput. I didn't knew that you had a printer at all (I mean, I can't recall you mentioning this before). How did you liked the 9900 and what do you think about the 2200 so far??? From what I have heard, the 9900 is quite a printer. I would supose that you might have decided to go with Epson because of their UltraChrome archival inks.

I haven't quite made my mind yet regarding what I will go for. Actually, I am saving money for the whole thing and I should probably make a move in late february/early march. Truthfully, I am mostly interested by the Kodak Professional 1400 dye sublimation printer at that point, mainly because of the (very) low maintenace factor and the low, predictable cost of operation. That being said, I haven't seen the printer in store yet, nor a demo print.

I have made a little search on QuickGamma and it appears that there is no Mac version outthere.

Btw, this is totally unrelated to the topic but I gave look at the Philosophy Box website last week. It seems like a very interesting gallery (Yu Whuan works seems great too). I am 80% positive that I will make it to NY for the long easter week-end. I just need to read about the city and to figure out what to see (or should I say what to miss considering that I will have only 3 full days to spend there...).

best regards

Seb

[gahspidy]

Yes, the 9900 is quite a printer and the vivid, quality and SPEED is remarkable. Did I mention SPEED? It spits out prints so fast you have to be ready lest you get hit in the neck with a 13x19 sheet. But, it cannot handle a variety of papers.Your basically stuck with Canon Photo Pro paper whaich is a high gloss 9.5 mil paper that will give approx 38 years. Not bad. But if you print on anything else, especially another brand, the print life could be reduced to just a few years! I did not feel comfortable selling or exhibiting anything like that.
The Epson allows me to print on very thick Quality papers and be assured that they will last a very long time, plus there is much support as well as profiles for the 2200 from various quality paper manufactures. But, I had no idea how fast the Canon was until I started using the 2200. Especially at its highest setting, a 13x19 could take as much as 30 minutes. The Canon did a 13x19 at highest quality in about 5 or 6 minutes!
Unless I missed something, I had noticed in Wilhelm imaging site that the Dye Subs had a very short resistance to fading. I wil ahve to look that up again to see if I am not mistaken. But they do have a reputation for making very nice prints. Too bad about the QuickGamma not available for the mac.
Thanks for checking out the gallery. . I ran into Yu the other day and she asked me to prepare my exhibit as she has extended her gallery into the spring( She will be eventually moving her location) and will come by to help me choose the pieces for exhibit. Problem is now that I'm using the new printer, it is going to take me a little time before I decide and get comfortable with what papers and setting results I will be pleased with. And some other inherent expenses involved. . .so I will let you know any further info. I appreciate your inquiring and would look forward to the chance to meet you if you visit the city.

[Seb]

Yes, the 9900 is quite a printer and the vivid, quality and SPEED is remarkable. Did I mention SPEED? It spits out prints so fast you have to be ready lest you get hit in the neck with a 13x19 sheet. But, it cannot handle a variety of papers.Your basically stuck with Canon Photo Pro paper whaich is a high gloss 9.5 mil paper that will give approx 38 years. Not bad. But if you print on anything else, especially another brand, the print life could be reduced to just a few years! I did not feel comfortable selling or exhibiting anything like that.
The Epson allows me to print on very thick Quality papers and be assured that they will last a very long time, plus there is much support as well as profiles for the 2200 from various quality paper manufactures. But, I had no idea how fast the Canon was until I started using the 2200. Especially at its highest setting, a 13x19 could take as much as 30 minutes. The Canon did a 13x19 at highest quality in about 5 or 6 minutes!
Unless I missed something, I had noticed in Wilhelm imaging site that the Dye Subs had a very short resistance to fading. I wil ahve to look that up again to see if I am not mistaken. But they do have a reputation for making very nice prints. Too bad about the QuickGamma not available for the mac.
Thanks for checking out the gallery. . I ran into Yu the other day and she asked me to prepare my exhibit as she has extended her gallery into the spring( She will be eventually moving her location) and will come by to help me choose the pieces for exhibit. Problem is now that I'm using the new printer, it is going to take me a little time before I decide and get comfortable with what papers and setting results I will be pleased with. And some other inherent expenses involved. . .so I will let you know any further info. I appreciate your inquiring and would look forward to the chance to meet you if you visit the city.

Hello Gary,

Wow, the 9900 was fast! I gave a look at the Wilhelm imaging site. All I could find is an old (1995) report were various printers/methods where compared. At that time, dye sub prints would have an average life span of more or less 15 years (which is really bad) but the average ink jet printer would make print that would last 6 years moreover....
Quite obviously, this report is totally outdated and probably doesn't hold any value in 2005 as the technology improved so much...
Which bring me back to my search to find out how durable today's dye sublimation print are. Kodak claim that their new 1400 produce "archival prints which will last a lifetime" without saying anything about the actual life span of the prints in years. By searching further more, I found that these prints using their pro grade "Ektatherm" paper and ribbons should equal the life span of a traditional silver halide print (apparently 20 to 30 years depending on the sources...).
Quite frankly, there are so little informations outhere that it's hard for me to have a clear view of the situation. I hope that more informations will be available soon.
I wish you the best with your new 2200. Since you seem to print quite a lot, did you ever had banding or clogging issues with the Canon (or the Epson)? My only fear with inkjet printers is that the head would end up clogging as I wont print on a regular basis...
I'll be glad to visit the Philosophy Box whether your show is on or not (I obviously hope that it will be) and would also be glad to meet you if the opportunity arise.

Seb

[gahspidy]

Seb, I sure can understand your concern in that respect to these printers, as I have and still do worry about those dilemas. The Canon I had for about 6 months and never had any banding or any problems at all for that matter. there had been times when I had not printed for a week or so and no clogging. The 2200 so far has been great right from the start, and no banding or issues after 60 8.5x11 sheets. . .mostly testing andsettings. Inks seem to last a bit longer with the 2200, maybe because the tanks are a bit larger, and ink is cheaper. The 9900 ink tanks would run 10.95 and 11.95. . .the 2200 I find the tanks for 9.95. So far, from the 60 or so sheets printed, I have replaced the light magenta, light cyan, then black, and now just replaced the cyan and light balck( which are still full at this time)
Funny thing is if I try to use any profiles, like from epson or another paper company, the prints usually come out darker and not very accurate. I must be doing something wrong. But when I print with no color management at all, Prints come out like what I see on the screen. Sometimes they are not quite as popping and brilliant as on scrreen then just up saturation and brightness a bit and it gets going. For b&w images, I find that I have to dial in a - 3to6 magenta to nuetralize the grays, as the 2200 seems to be a little heavy on the magenta.
I just got some sample fine art papers and other types and will see what I like . Something I could not think of doing with the 9900.