The Power Of Photo Critique - Editorial

[Photo-John]

I've wanted to write a real article about the photo critique process for quite a while. I finally made it a point to sit down and write a short article on the subject. I'd love for everyone here to read it and comment. I hope it inspires people to be more serious about photo critique.

The Power Of Photo Critique >>

Those of you who have been around here for a while know that I occasionally jump in and scold people for not posting real critiques and wax philosophical about how and why true critique is so important. We've got something special on this forum. It would be a shame if we didn't give it the value and respect it deserves. For the sake of the forum and also because I am showing us off to the whole photographic world, I'd like to see everyone here step it up a bit. I would like to see a lot less comments without any critique. There's no such thing as a perfect photo. There's always something that can be improved or even just done differently.

I'd also like to see more discussion about concept and meaning. Technical issues are just the surface; they're easy to point out. What is more difficult - and what will help us all grow more - is looking more deeply into content, meaning and motivation. Why did we take this picture and not another? What does the relationship of the subject to other elements in the photo mean? How might we further explore a given subject? These are the questions that can transform photos from pretty pictures into something bigger and more powerful.

[NKP68]

I joined this group several years ago, initially posting my images to the Photo Critique portion of Photo Gallery. This is around the time I joined a local photo club here in Philadelphia PA. I have been taking family pictures since 1963 or so. I enjoyed it but never knew what makes a great picture. I started posting my work here in the hopes of gaining a better understanding of my hobby.
I was soon disappointed and disheartened by the lack of feedback that my photos were getting. I was offering my critiques of other peoples work but I rarely received one or two thoughtful appraisals, if any, of mine.
I almost left the site when I began a dialog with starridderrick. He was interested in sparking some interest in increased member quality critique participation. He mentioned the Photo Critique Forum section of this site. I have been posting here ever since.
I feel that if you are interested in developing your photographic craft it is essential to silicate a wide variety of opinions of your work.
Normally I begin with my own personal idea of the quality and worth of particular image, and I must feel confident that it is worthy to be critiqued. I value everyone’s comments because a quality critique will point out the good the bad and the ugly in what I may not have noticed before. Accepting these points as constructive is vital to improvement.
I am reminded constantly of them while on a shoot. I, in turn, become more strict and a lot less likely to be OK with the mediocre. My eye has sharpened to search out and recognize that rare, special image.
This has now become the way I see the world around me everyday, to see the art of my surroundings.
That doesn’t mean that I can convert them into outstanding captures.
A very important part of getting better at my craft is turning a critical eye to the work of others. This has forced me to really inspect and put into understandable words what I see and feel in another’s work. The act of doing this has taught and reinforced in me what makes a good photo. In addition I am giving back to those who have spent the time and effort to help me grow photographically.

Until now I have not offered much in the way of attempting to interpret “content, meaning and motivation”. Some images just don’t seem to lend themselves to that level of critique. That said, there are many that do. I for one will begin to offer more detailed descriptions of what I was attempting to convey in a particular capture. I hope that this critique improvement initiative will be widely accepted and followed. Thank you very much, M2C, Ed

[Sebastian]

Fantastic post PJ.

One thing I'd like to add is that I personally find it very hard to critique someone's work without knowing what their intent was. Too often I find myself spending several paragraphs going on about how I love how they intended to evoke "B" only to find out that all along they were going for the much different "C". Critiquing well takes energy, and just a few times of misplacing that effort is enough to make one seek less involving things on the internet. Like LOLcats.

[Asmarlak]

Critique of a picture happen after the picture was taken when usually nothing could be done about it unless it is about the way it was post processed. They rarely help with the following shot because it'd be of a completely different subject, environment.
I know It could sound odd what about to say but I don't find much use for photo critique anyway. Critique doesn't make people learn much. Learning comes with constantly shooting different subjects more and more and not by reading about it, also by seeing other photographers work. If you look at the subject through your viewfinder or LCD and unable to see what is wrong then no one would be able to help you. Very small part of photography is learnable but most of it has to come from you.

[Loupey]

...Too often I find myself spending several paragraphs going on about how I love how they intended to evoke "B" only to find out that all along they were going for the much different "C". Critiquing well takes energy, and just a few times of misplacing that effort is enough to make one seek less involving things on the internet. Like LOLcats.

I can understand that! The critique forum used to be one of my favorite forums and the main reason why I first joined. But I rarely visit it anymore. A sincere reply with not so much as an acknowledgment kills the helpful spirit pretty quickly.

[NKP68]

The old adage of: “practice makes perfect” is a bit of a misnomer. Actually, practice makes permanent.
Just because you do a like task over and over again does not ensure you’re doing it the best way possible or even correctly.
By and large, if left to ones own devices, you will grow only as far as your own experience will let you.
Why do we read? Why do we go to school, if we can get all we need from ourselves? By listening to other perspectives, ideas, viewpoints, and subject knowledge, you can open your eyes and mind to a vastly greater number of possibilities.
Ed

[draymorton]

The old adage of: “practice makes perfect” is a bit of a misnomer. Actually, practice makes permanent.
Just because you do a like task over and over again does not ensure you’re doing it the best way possible or even correctly.
By and large, if left to ones own devices, you will grow only as far as your own experience will let you.
Why do we read? Why do we go to school, if we can get all we need from ourselves? By listening to other perspectives, ideas, viewpoints, and subject knowledge, you can open your eyes and mind to a vastly greater number of possibilities.
Ed

Very well said.

[Asmarlak]

The old adage of: “practice makes perfect” is a bit of a misnomer. Actually, practice makes permanent.
Just because you do a like task over and over again does not ensure you’re doing it the best way possible or even correctly.
By and large, if left to ones own devices, you will grow only as far as your own experience will let you.
Why do we read? Why do we go to school, if we can get all we need from ourselves? By listening to other perspectives, ideas, viewpoints, and subject knowledge, you can open your eyes and mind to a vastly greater number of possibilities.
Ed

We both are talking about two different processes. You're talking about learning about photography and I was talking about becoming a good photographer.
Learning about something and becoming good at it are two different processes, one follows the other. We go to schools and read to learn about something not to be good at it. You become good at it only by practicing it.
In the photography world there is no such thing as "correctly", there is only good picture and bad picture regardless of what you do, discovering it yourself is the best way.

[CLKunst]

One of the things I like most about the Critique Forum is the range of perspectives you can receive on any given image; normal or weird, edgy or flowers. They don't just range from good to bad here but from experience levels, culturally, internationally, globally. I always look forward to catching up with PR members opinions from all over the WORLD. I look forward to interacting with these people because they each bring a unique perspective and a candid honest response to my images, even if that response is 'I don't like it because. . ' or 'That's a bad picture.' I want to taste that range of response, this is my testing ground. At the end of the day its always my decision as to whether I think it's good enough to sign my name an put it in a frame but I always appreciate the candid input I get from the forum.

[Asmarlak]

My work is my "Art". It is nice to know what others think of it AFTER it is finished, after all we do what we do to be seen by others, but what they say will never change it. If it satisfies me then that's it. Serious artists don't tailor their work according to what people think of it, nor solicit ideas on how they do it. I have been seeing people in this forum for years and they still say they're "learning", well at some point the learning process should step aside and you become your own regardless of what others think. If you apply for a job and tell them you're "learning" thinking that they'd see that as positive thing you'll never get the job, you get it only when you say "I Can".

[Sebastian]

If you apply for a job and tell them you're "learning" thinking that they'd see that as positive thing you'll never get the job, you get it only when you say "I Can".

The easiest, fastest way to knock yourself out of the running for any job these days is to tell them you're done learning. Last year alone we probably wrote off 15+ candidates the second anything resembling "I have nothing left to learn" came out of their mouths.

Anyone that thinks they're done learning is often delusional or obscenely arrogant, and often a dangerous combination of the two.

"I can" and "I am always learning" are the exact two things we look for in everyone we hire, but *very* rarely one without the other. Progress waits for no one.

[Asmarlak]

"I can" and "I am always learning" are the exact two things we look for in everyone we hire, but *very* rarely one without the other. Progress waits for no one.

Neither do I. If you read what wrote carefully, I said "at some point the learning process should step aside and you become your own", I didn't say "stop".
But it seems that some people take learning as an excuse. When asked why didn't you?, because "I'm learning". The learning process never stops but being accomplished should also go along with it, its not like one way or the other.

[Grandpaw]

I have learned a lot by reading the critiques by others and by leaving some of my own. When I read what others have written, quite often they have mentioned things that I hadn't noticed or given suggestions that I haven't even considered. By getting so many different views of the pros and cons of a picture I can expand my arena of ideas. When I go out to shoot some of the ideas mentioned here will pop into my mind and I say to myself "Maybe I should try that". By being exposed to many different ideas and views on the critique forum it widens my view of how things can be done different. This doesn't mean I agree with all of them or give each and every one a try but it does give me a bigger pool of ideas to draw from. Each of us look at things in very different ways but that is what helps us expand and get better. I hope I never get to the point that I don't listen to others ideas because if I do, I think it will be time to put up my equipment, Jeff

[Asmarlak]

Let me add something. Although it is important to know what others think of our work but we shouldn't apply it as long as our original work satisfies us. If we apply everything we hear, there will be time when they all become similar and eventually lose individuality.

[CLKunst]

I'd also like to add that another thing I love about the critique forum is the ability to rub shoulders with other phootgraphers in a non-competitve atmosphere. People don't hold grudges here, (at least I hope they don't,) and honesty is appreciated.

When I'm in the field and on an assignment with lots of other photographers in a crowd or at an event my game face is on and I'm after one thing, MY shot. I might be somebody's Mommy, but if you get in my way I'll step on you, I'll help you up afterwards too but you get my drift. Absorbed attention and critical focus. None of you ever see that face becase it's totally unecessary here. It's about the pictures, the perspective and definitely learning. :thumbsup:

If you don't think the PR Photo Critique Forum is a transformative place, I double-dog dare you to go back in time a year or three on some of our senior members and moderators critique posts and see how many people they've collectively helped raise the level of their photography through honest opinion and openly offered advice and how they've improved themselves. I gaurantee you'll get tired long before you run out of instances. All of the pictures displayed in PJ's blog post were from this forum and these members. I remember when Tom posted that "Something Original" photo. Seeing it in the blog was like seeing an old friend again.

[Greg McCary]

Cindy you are right. I have seen photographers come in critiques and leave flying like eagles. Some of them are Flickr friends and some still post here in the galleries.
In the past I posted shots in critiques forum and if I didn't get it right lots of times I went back and tried again. I think it cut the learning curve by years.
I don't think you can never learn enough about composition, the rules and how to break them.
We are products of our inspirations and most of mine are right here a Photography Review.

[Loupey]

My work is my "Art". It is nice to know what others think of it AFTER it is finished, after all we do what we do to be seen by others, but what they say will never change it. If it satisfies me then that's it. Serious artists don't tailor their work according to what people think of it, nor solicit ideas on how they do it. I have been seeing people in this forum for years and they still say they're "learning", well at some point the learning process should step aside and you become your own regardless of what others think. If you apply for a job and tell them you're "learning" thinking that they'd see that as positive thing you'll never get the job, you get it only when you say "I Can".

Your point of view is from a very specific angle - that of "art".

I think many people come here to get help to "sell themselves" or "sell their images/art" or "get published" or "gain acceptance" or even just to send better pictures of little Bobby to aunt May. So, yeah, the opinion of others mean a heck of a lot. There's a business aspect to consider - even if people are giving away their pictures for free.

That's why fast food companies have test markets and taste tests. That's why television shows live and die by their ratings. That's why chefs have a love/hate relationship with food critics.

[Photo-John]

Very small part of photography is learnable but most of it has to come from you.

I totally disagree. Of course, some people have more natural talent than others. But I believe most anyone can learn and polish the basics and become a proficient photographer. And as you can tell from my article, I have a lot of faith in the power of critique. I think people who are resistant to it are afraid of the challenge it offers.

[gahspidy]

I can understand that! The critique forum used to be one of my favorite forums and the main reason why I first joined. But I rarely visit it anymore. A sincere reply with not so much as an acknowledgment kills the helpful spirit pretty quickly.

Yep, that used to bug me and still does once in a while but I look at it a bit differently now. I figure that when I spend some time offering my thoughts and suggestions on a thread it not only may be of interest to the member who started it, but the other members on the forum that may be reading it and may consider it helpful. It also helps me in being able to "think out loud" and give myself a better understanding of what makes something work for me and not.
I can remember a few times when a thread was active with discussion and debate by various members....minus the member who started the thread in the first place. It didn't matter really, it was a healthy and beneficial discussion for the rest of us.
Come back to the dark side, Loupey, Sebastian.... :thumbsup: or at least the occasional cameo...

[Asmarlak]

Your point of view is from a very specific angle - that of "art".

I think many people come here to get help to "sell themselves" or "sell their images/art" or "get published" or "gain acceptance" or even just to send better pictures of little Bobby to aunt May. So, yeah, the opinion of others mean a heck of a lot. There's a business aspect to consider - even if people are giving away their pictures for free.

That's why fast food companies have test markets and taste tests. That's why television shows live and die by their ratings. That's why chefs have a love/hate relationship with food critics.

You are absolutely right. Everyone here is representing his/her opinion according to their own experiences and level of expectations of being here, I aimed in a complete different direction. My apologizes.
Your reply opened my eyes and gave me an answer to a question I struggled with for some time about the site.

[Asmarlak]

...I was soon disappointed and disheartened by the lack of feedback that my photos were getting. I was offering my critiques of other peoples work but I rarely received one or two thoughtful appraisals, if any, of mine.

We live in a society where people are always taught to be nice, even people who are not so much, they still pretend to be nice in order to gain validation and acceptance. Disastrously, many people have already crossed over the thin line from being nice to being passive which caused apparent losses on every level in this country.
We have one of the best democracies in the world but yet we take it for granted and very small number of registered voters vote, and even that small number who practice their fundamental right, they do it only on the voting day every two or four years then go home and forget about it for years. People don't criticize nor demand their elected officials to stick to what they promised. No wonder that Republicans go and Democrats come, nothing seem to change except for the worst mainly because the protectors of democracy are not demanding nor critical enough.

This Critique forum is just a smaller version of that. I rarely participated but often visited it and always felt that members couldn't bring themselves to saying something negative and even when they do it, it is not in a useful way. It eventually became frustrating for me and came here only to bitch and shake things up. Now I try hard to avoid the forum area all together.
I'm aware of PJ's attempts to make people give critique which is basically (in my opinion) trying to make uncritical people (by nature) more critical. Even if some tolerated it for a while, soon things could very well get back to its cultural roots.

I remember when George W. Bush was in office and I was very critical of him, a woman who was present looked at me angrily and said, "If you have something positive say it otherwise keep it for yourself".

[Greg McCary]

Well I critique when i can offer useful advice. If it is a studio shot or macro it is really out of my territory. But yes if it's a friend and a great shot I will give them a pat on the back. At one time I got hammered pretty hard in critiques. I remember my first post of a flower getting a comment like, "You got a lot of guts posting that." But I hung in there and listened and learned. Found my way and developed my own style.
Yes it's hard to be tough and be kind about it. But that is what we are here for. The knowledge base here at Photography Review is deep. If you are not getting enough feed back, bump it and yell. I don't know about the other Mods but I will even offer help via PMs if need be. I am sure the others would too.

[GB1]

Some very interesting postings here folks.

I agree with Asmarlak's comment that things could be set once the person takes the shot, negating the value of post-shooting critique, but that assumes that the person either can't or won't understand, accept and/or learn from the critiques. Some do, some don't - some just don't see things that others do, some don't learn from their mistakes as quickly, and some people just let their egos get in the way (which is especially sad).

I also really like Ed's observation that practice has the danger of making things permanent, not perfect. I think practice doing the same thing over and over, slightly refining along the way, can help you nail the technical aspects of photography, but not the artistic aspects. You must keep an open mind in that .. it's really black magic, and nobody has had any real success formulating creativity.

What I love about this critique forum is the wide range of different angles the comments take. It helps break me out of my normal mold.

I think you really have to have a little bit of a thick skin to post your work for critique. Art's a personal thing, and depending on what you're posting the critiquers may not just be evaluating the photographs you took, but your artist vision. Yeah it can sting a bit if someone doesn't like it, but if you don't put your stuff out there you'll never really know how good it is.

[Anbesol]

I'm a bit of an obsessive nit-picker. I will often like an image a lot, and still have several nitpicks to throw in. For me, the nitpicks collectively can transform an image. Its that hopeless perfectionist in me that drives me to the attention to detail.

This is an interesting discussion and I think I'm now a little more aware of the perspectives others have towards critique. My attitude towards critique is a little different than what seems to be consensus here. I will offer a nitpick, even if its a hopeless nitpick. I critiqued an landscape image today saying I'd "like it to be wider" in composition, even though he shot as wide as he possibly could. To me, I don't think that negates the value of critique, just because it isn't practical or possible. It is simply taking the image and isolating it, forgetting what camera took it, or what the specific gear limitations were. Even though its hopeless as far as advice goes, its still a judgment of the image itself, which should stand apart from whatever gear shot it. I will offer advice if I can, but I will still offer critique even when I'm stumped for advice.

[Anbesol]

We welcome everybody who isn't a spambot, like Kay and Simon over there. So welcome to the forums! Get posting some stuff! ;)