New Guidelines...

First off I would like to thank the people and moderators responsible for setting up and running this site which I believe is the best for getting valuable feedback on the net.

Haven't we just finished a different thread recently about the quantity and quality of critiques on this forum?

I think this is getting very petty and the only guideline I'm not too keen on is the time limit. Otherwise their all sensible and decent guidelines.

If I scan a photo taken in 1980 is this counted as it was film not digital?

I will continue to critique as I always have using my honest opinion of a photograph and include my thoughts on the technical and personal thoughts that I have. Work always comes first so there are times when I have no opportunity for my hobbies so please forgive me periods of brief terse comments or sparse comments on this site. Phtography for me is a hobby not a job.

I am always grateful for any feedback either personal thoughts or technical feedback on anything I post, because the photos I critique are the one's I'm not sure of. Some will go straight to my WEB site as I am happy with them and never appear here, the rest go straight in the bin.

Now can we all get back to doing the real work of this site - improving my ability at photography.

Roger

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Originally Posted by readingr

First off I would like to thank the people and moderators responsible for setting up and running this site which I believe is the best for getting valuable feedback on the net.

Haven't we just finished a different thread recently about the quantity and quality of critiques on this forum?

I think this is getting very petty and the only guideline I'm not too keen on is the time limit. Otherwise their all sensible and decent guidelines.

If I scan a photo taken in 1980 is this counted as it was film not digital?

I will continue to critique as I always have using my honest opinion of a photograph and include my thoughts on the technical and personal thoughts that I have. Work always comes first so there are times when I have no opportunity for my hobbies so please forgive me periods of brief terse comments or sparse comments on this site. Phtography for me is a hobby not a job.

I am always grateful for any feedback either personal thoughts or technical feedback on anything I post, because the photos I critique are the one's I'm not sure of. Some will go straight to my WEB site as I am happy with them and never appear here, the rest go straight in the bin.

Now can we all get back to doing the real work of this site - improving my ability at photography.

Roger

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I kind of get the impression here, that the system here isn't broke. Is that right?
For the most part everyone is content with the feedback they are getting?
Is that right?
Brian

I am. It isn't always so important to be so deep in technical analysis. I think we got some good, well though out analysis when the opportunity comes. Not every photo carries enough impact to warrant it, and sometimes couldn't even be improved with such.

My most memorable comment ever came from Matthew Tardiff. I didn't send him anything, he found my stuff by chance, and sent an e-mail. The mail read simply, "I really like your eye on your b&w work". When I found out who he was, I got chills and smiled for 2 days nonstop, as I am a big fan of his.

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Originally Posted by mtbbrian

I kind of get the impression here, that the system here isn't broke. Is that right?
For the most part everyone is content with the feedback they are getting?
Is that right?
Brian

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I think that's basically right. As long as the thrust of the forum is supportive, honest critique and you continue with a policy of discouraging those who seem to come to argue or put people down.

The styles of critiques will continue to vary as the mix of people changes.

I think your job here is a lot like herding cats, eh?

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Originally Posted by Chunk

I think your job here is a lot like herding cats, eh?

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That is one of my all-time favorite commercials.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...91681481453187

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Originally Posted by Chunk

I think your job here is a lot like herding cats, eh?

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LOL Chunk?
Maybe I should change my 'user title" to "Hearder of Cats, Moderator of Critiques!
Thanks for the chucckle!
Brian
:rolleyes: :p :D

OMG that is so funny. That's right up there next to the grizzly bear salmon commercial :D

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Originally Posted by mtbbrian

The only real direction John and I want to take this forum is in the direction of providing constructive critics.

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Okay, I think that's a pretty good direction to go in. Let's see what we can do as a group to brainstorm ways to encourage folks to post more constructive critiques.

We used to have a sample critique posted for example didn't we? Didn't PJ write it? I think modelling behaviour is a pretty good way of encouraging it in others. Posting an example of what we're looking for will provide a pretty good model for folks to follow.

Also, since modelling doesn't always work, critique guidlines like the ones you posted here should always be present. Being specific about what is and is not encouraged provides critiquers with a good idea about what they should write. Allowing for vague, emotional responses to photos can be allowed here too.

Let's see what the rest of the crew has to say about how to encourage more constructive criticism up here!

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Originally Posted by walterick

Okay, I think that's a pretty good direction to go in. Let's see what we can do as a group to brainstorm ways to encourage folks to post more constructive critiques.

We used to have a sample critique posted for example didn't we? Didn't PJ write it? I think modelling behaviour is a pretty good way of encouraging it in others. Posting an example of what we're looking for will provide a pretty good model for folks to follow.

Also, since modelling doesn't always work, critique guidlines like the ones you posted here should always be present. Being specific about what is and is not encouraged provides critiquers with a good idea about what they should write. Allowing for vague, emotional responses to photos can be allowed here too.

Let's see what the rest of the crew has to say about how to encourage more constructive criticism up here!

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I have also been thinking about this Rick and maybe what the real issue is, is education.
Education about what it means to critique photography/art.
It's a matter of lots of things, which include the emotional, the aesthectic and the technical. Liking someone's photograph isn't going to help someone grow with their photography. Not those kinds of comments are bad, it's just that they don't usually give someone much to go on in a way that will provide them with a way to think about it when they are out shooting the next time.
Know what I mean?
Maybe we need to look at this another way..
Brian

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Originally Posted by mtbbrian

I have also been thinking about this Rick and maybe what the real issue is, is education.
Education about what it means to critique photography/art.
It's a matter of lots of things, which include the emotional, the aesthectic and the technical. Liking someone's photograph isn't going to help someone grow with their photography. Not those kinds of comments are bad, it's just that they don't usually give someone much to go on in a way that will provide them with a way to think about it when they are out shooting the next time.
Know what I mean?
Maybe we need to look at this another way..
Brian

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Brian,

I'm all for education. I also wonder if we have to define "critique" in order to teach it uniformly. This alone can open up a whole can of worms.

Something just occured to me as I was reading your message. I think we need to differentiate between a "feedback forum" and a "critique forum." A "feedback forum" allows the viewer to respond however they wish, including "great shot!" and the like. A "critique forum" on the other hand would have specific guidelines on what a critique is and how to write one, and there would be an expectation that most responses would fall into that category. Up until this point, I think this has been a feedback forum. By the sound of it we're moving more into a critique forum. I am okay either way.

I do want to however disagree with one of your points here (imagine that! LOL :D) I do believe that liking someone's picture helps them grow. It says to them "you're doing great as you are. More of the same!" It builds confidence in our work and sends us out into our next shoot with pizzazz. If we're feeling bashed or picked apart we might not make the same effort next time we're out.

Just a few thoughts. I think there is room up here for the "liking" element as well as the "critique" one. But as I've said before, I trust whatever direction you and PJ decide to take us in.

BTW, I accept Paypal and Discover :D

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Originally Posted by walterick

Brian,

A "feedback forum" allows the viewer to respond however they wish, including "great shot!" and the like. A "critique forum" on the other hand would have specific guidelines on what a critique is and how to write one,

See my definition of the two words

I do want to however disagree with one of your points here (imagine that! LOL :D) I do believe that liking someone's picture helps them grow. It says to them "you're doing great as you are. More of the same!" It builds confidence in our work and sends us out into our next shoot with pizzazz. If we're feeling bashed or picked apart we might not make the same effort next time we're out.

Totally agree with the statement

Just a few thoughts. I think there is room up here for the "liking" element as well as the "critique" one.

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Walter this response isn't a dig at your comments, I just want to use your excellent points to emphasise my view, so please don't take this in the wrong vein.

Okay my final word on this. From the OED

"critique
n noun a detailed analysis and assessment.
n verb (critiques, critiquing, critiqued) evaluate in a detailed and analytical way.

ORIGIN
C17: from French, based on Greek kritike tekhne 'critical art'."

"feedback
n noun
1 information given in response to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc., used as a basis for improvement.
2 the modification or control of a process or system by its results or effects.
3 the return of a fraction of the output of an amplifier, microphone, or other device to the input, causing distortion or a whistling sound."

Remember when you were new to photography - Could you have given a detailed and analytical critique of a photograph. Probably not; but you could say "I like it, or don't like it, but not sure why.

However, if you read a load of the critiques on this forum and I do mean critiques then you will soon learn to critique photos yourself by understanding how to take better photos and when someone posts something you spot as not quite right then you will be able to respond.

IMHO this forum isn't broken and the different types/levels of critique occur because of the vast range of experience that is prevelant on this site. This means that even beginners can learn from this site and get better, and more importantly be comfortable in contributing what they can. This is learning at its best.

I agree with Walter in that there is a place here for all levels of critique because I for one want to encourage as many people as possible in their endevours. However, if you look at the meaning of both words as defined by the OED then there is very little to choose between them as they both need detailed analysis to provide the feedback, which is what is ultimately given on this forum. The level of analysis is governed by a persons experience.

On occasions you just want to say "Damn Good Job" because there is nothing to critique. I still expect people to give me a pat on the back if they think its got that WOW FACTOR.

So in conclusion - I believe this site is the best I have found on the net and works EXTREMELY WELL. So lets not loose perspective this site is educational.

Roger

Thanks for the great comments Roger.
I just found a site that talks about critiquing photographs, I thought it had some good information.
http://www.nwtc.edu/Programs/Photography/Critique.htm
Brian

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Originally Posted by walterick

BTW, I accept Paypal and Discover :D

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Duely noted Rick...:rolleyes: ;) :p :D :)

I think those are great points Roger.

Maybe a direction we can head in is not eliminating the feedback, but increasing the critiques? That way we all win.

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Originally Posted by mtbbrian

Thanks for the great comments Roger.
I just found a site that talks about critiquing photographs, I thought it had some good information.
http://www.nwtc.edu/Programs/Photography/Critique.htm
Brian

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That's a good site. I would say that's what already occurs here. On the top of that page it says"Here are some guidelines on what you should look at and consider making comments about " - It doesn't say that you should include all those points. I like it when different aspects of a photo are mentioned by different people and feel 'preachy' if I list more than one or maybe two improvements that I can see.

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Originally Posted by Chunk

That's a good site. I would say that's what already occurs here. On the top of that page it says"Here are some guidelines on what you should look at and consider making comments about " - It doesn't say that you should include all those points. I like it when different aspects of a photo are mentioned by different people and feel 'preachy' if I list more than one or maybe two improvements that I can see.

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I totally agree with Chunk, so I think its quod erat demonstrandum.

Roger

I attended my first official PSA judging last night. I finally am beginning to understand a well thought out critique after sitting through 90-something of them. It's a totally different experience hearing it/seeing it live conducted by "official" judges. Certainly judges don't know everything, but I think it is a great experience, and an eye opener. When I got home, I spent four hours looking over everything I have shot, and saw it all in a totally different manner.

I don't know about the critique for every picture I take. The reason for this is that I don't feel confortable criticizing someone's work when I know they are much more accomplished than me. If I am completly off base i apoligize i just dont think my crtique would help people such as Lava Lamp or julsoph and many others who are very accomplished photographers and know what they are doing. If I was a amazing photographer and some 'kid' pointed out different things that they believe is 'wrong' I just dont know if I would even take it as advice, i would probably just ignore it... i dont know, i may be wrong, that is just how i feel

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Originally Posted by Godfather25

I don't know about the critique for every picture I take. The reason for this is that I don't feel confortable criticizing someone's work when I know they are much more accomplished than me. If I am completly off base i apoligize i just dont think my crtique would help people such as Lava Lamp or julsoph and many others who are very accomplished photographers and know what they are doing. If I was a amazing photographer and some 'kid' pointed out different things that they believe is 'wrong' I just dont know if I would even take it as advice, i would probably just ignore it... i dont know, i may be wrong, that is just how i feel

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Godfather,

From personal experience, I find that many accomplished photogs get to that level because they are respectful and welcoming of input from all their viewers. That is after all why they take pictures, for people to view.

Don't hesitate for one moment in posting a critique. If you love the image, say so, and follow up with the reasons for it. You and the photographer will learn a lot.

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Originally Posted by Godfather25

I don't know about the critique for every picture I take. The reason for this is that I don't feel confortable criticizing someone's work when I know they are much more accomplished than me. If I am completly off base i apoligize i just dont think my crtique would help people such as Lava Lamp or julsoph and many others who are very accomplished photographers and know what they are doing. If I was a amazing photographer and some 'kid' pointed out different things that they believe is 'wrong' I just dont know if I would even take it as advice, i would probably just ignore it... i dont know, i may be wrong, that is just how i feel

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I agree with Sebastian in that I want honest feedback from all sorts of people. Also, if we discuss something you don't like about one of my shots, the dialog just might teach us both something. Read through some of gahspidy's postings for examples of this - Gary is very good at encouraging helpful dialog and I often learn a lot from his responses as well as from the critiques and responses offered by others.

There are two similar words that are often used interchangably on this forum that to me seem almost opposites - Critique and Criticize. I suppose one definition of critcize might be 'to offer critique' but criticize carries strong negative connotations for me and critiquing carries equally strong positive ones. This isn't directed specifically at you Godfather, but I'd be interested in how others see this.

Godfather, I can't tell you how flattered I am...you should definitely feel free though to comment on any work here. One of my favorite things about this site is that there's such a range of experience! Critique is one of the best ways to learn, both receiving it and giving it...even if it's using less than technical terms like, "I like the way you did this or that". I don't know much in the way of terms at ALL, but I know what *I* think works in a picture...and if I'm wrong, hey...it's ok! I'm learning too. :)
Like Chunk said, I too welcome all honest feedback and comments, as I'm definitely still learning what it's all about.
Emily

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Originally Posted by Sebastian

Godfather,

From personal experience, I find that many accomplished photogs get to that level because they are respectful and welcoming of input from all their viewers. That is after all why they take pictures, for people to view.

Don't hesitate for one moment in posting a critique. If you love the image, say so, and follow up with the reasons for it. You and the photographer will learn a lot.

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Well said Seb, I totally agree with you. In the simplest terms, that is what I'd like to see happen here.
Brian

sounds good i willt try that

Coming in late but have to add my two cents because that's just how I am!!! :)

You guys are the reason why my photography has improved. I still have a ways to go but this site has been the main reason why I've had finalists at another site. Because you guys have given me such great direction and input.

I don't listen to the pompous asses of the world who come in to show me what great photographers they are, and spouting about the golden ratio, and the selective focus that would have proffered such significance to my now mediocre work. Those guys can just stay over at the .net site and leave us be.

But here it's always been (gently) suggested that while a nice image maybe if I had paid more attention to the placement of my subject or if maybe I had thought to increase or decrease that DOF, or (just fill in this space with anything!) that maybe I would have had an image more enjoyable. And I listen!! I admire all of your works, whether it's to my taste or not.

I am guilty of being one of the posters who will say "Wow! That's just beautiful" but usually only because everyone else has already made the points I would have made. If I can't add to the actual critique, please allow me to at least let you know that I am enjoying your work along with everyone else. I guess I just like to add a "me too" every once in a while.

If you come in acting like a know it all, if you come in thinking you are God, then don't bother critiquing my image. I don't want your advice. But as for the "regulars" newbie or old timer, have at it. Because I think you are all, talented. Maybe not all of us are where we will be in a couple more years, but that the talent is there is more than obvious, and I dig it when you appreciate my work, and when you don't, I listen (to most of you) and try to improve upon it. And the next time Gary, or Payn, or CL, or Seb, or any of you tells me "Hey, that looks much better" I feel so good!!
Thank you all for being here for me!!

D.

Thanks for the comments and heads up on the Guidelines. I am new to the photography comment web site and hope can help with a definition of a term: sticky. What is a sticky?

I may be sorry I asked that question...

CF