What are you going to do with your economic stimulas rebate?

[brmill26]

Interesting. Highly unlikely to help much, though. And the other question is how much you *really* get. I haven't read the actual legislation yet, but they always structure it in some screwed up way.

As a student, though, I'll take anything I can get!

[Frog]

I'm going to use it to pay the taxes I'll owe in April.

[f5fstop]

No rebate for me.... It appears that the rebate will be reduced by $50.00 for every 1K over 75K a single person makes per year.
Even if I was to get one, I would agree with some, it is ludicrous to think this will boost the economy for longer than a month or two.
I would rather have seen them extend unemployment another 26 weeks for those unemployed, cut the tax rate for retires on a fixed pension and disabled vets. This from a republican, and not a bleeding heart liberal.

[jgredline]

What a stupid idea....

The best way to help the economy here in the U.S. is simple....
Stop sending our Jobs out of the country...Tax the company's that do to the point where they will be forced to hire U.S. legal citizens..

Make drug testing and alcohol testing a requirement for collecting welfare...We can't be feeding peoples drug and drinking habits...
The bible says, if you want to eat, you need to work...So those who are able to work, need to work...

Stop giving money to our enemies....(this has never made sense to me)

Stop selling our precious metals to china...Yes, they have our aluminum and Titanium just to name a couple...

Raise import duties to the point where Americans will have to buy American instead of poisoned toys and tainted poison food...

All of this coming from a man who is as conservative / Christian as they come and someone who voted for President Bush Twice....and actively campaigned for him and someone who is also man enough to say, I made a mistake in supporting Bush...And now this will get us into more dept...

$300 bucks $800, $2000 bucks is not going to make a difference...It is like trying to fix a broken leg with a band aid and a cup of hot water and lemon leaves...It is not going to happen....,

However, I will not look a gift horse in the mouth...Lord knows I have paid more than my share of taxes and as such, I will by my new K20D....OH wait, I too do not qualify...ratts...Oh well, I will still buy my K20D...

Ok, off my soap box...

[brmill26]

What a stupid idea....

The best way to help the economy here in the U.S. is simple....
Stop sending our Jobs out of the country...Tax the company's that do to the point where they will be forced to hire U.S. legal citizens..

Stop selling our precious metals to china...Yes, they have our aluminum and Titanium just to name a couple...

Raise import duties to the point where Americans will have to buy American instead of poisoned toys and tainted poison food...

While that sounds good, and does have some merit (the money stays in American hands), the result of such regulations would be hugely inflationary, increasing the problems we already have.

Increasing tax on companies only means that tax gets passed on to consumers; therefore higher Cost Of Goods. Hiring American employees means higher wages, benefits, insurance, etc costs; again, the result is higher COG for the consumer. Wages must increase to compensate, and you restart the cycle again.

If we stop selling alloys to China, we lose that income. Al and Ti are not so advanced they can't figure out how to make it themselves. We need to take as much of their money as we can b/c the trade balance is already highly in their favor. China already has far too much leverage over our economy as-is; trade embargoes would only give them more power. Ignoring China and India's economy is a death sentence for America, like it or not.

Import duties are bad economics, plain and simple. It's been done over and over around the world on all kinds of things and the only end result is higher COG and/or lower quality products. The free market can still work its magic in this area - if the goods are bad, people will not buy them. However, Americans absolutely love low prices and will generally accept a poorer product, within limits, if it's significantly cheaper. Outside companies may have lower wage and regulatory costs, but American companies have a much broader availability of technology to counter that. So, the way American companies should compete with this is to increase efficiency, not write a bigger check to their lobbyists in Washington.

[Frog]

Maybe that all means we just plain can't afford our own lifestyle anymore.

[jgredline]

Brad
I hear and understand where you are coming from and likely we will not agree. I am coming at this from a business owners point of view...And have seen first hand what it is I am talking about....In saying this, there are many products that my company currently manufacture that would cost us less money to have made over seas or across the border, but I refuse...

[another view]

In saying this, there are many products that my company currently manufacture that would cost us less money to have made over seas or across the border, but I refuse...

Good for you! I do drive a VW but if domestic manufacturers would have made a 50mpg diesel car I'd probably have one of those instead. It almost seems like "the pendulum is swinging back" a little bit and some companies that manufacture in USA are doing better because of advantages of that (less time in transit, higher quality including materials and workmanship, etc). I'm paying a lot more attention to this than I was a year ago, and have a letter in the works to a company now talking about moving production to China.

I don't think we can stop sending our precious metals over there - they are used a lot in production of things that aren't made here that we need, specifically electronics. We can buy USA-assembled computers, but the hard drives and keyboards are made in the Far East. OTOH, the Japanese bought a bunch of scrap metal from us preceeding Pearl Harbor...

I think Glenn Beck on CNN had a good idea about Debit Cards with the tax rebate. Put on a short expiration date and you'll either "use it or lose it". This would do more to accomplish their goal of getting people to spend it. I said once before that I think domestic travel and hiring a contractor would be good things to do to boost the economy. But here in the office I hear people talking about buying electronic stuff undoubtedly made overseas, expanding our trade gap. Do we really think that increasing Best Buy's bottom line is the key to a healthy economy? Personally I don't like the whole thing. A few hundred bucks, and let's say that 50% of the people use it as intended. We have a bit of national debt last I looked. What about a modern version of the CCC projects from the Depression (hiring contractors - many of which are looking for things to do these days)? Just thinking...

[jgredline]

Good for you!

Thank you and it's really good for the people we employ. As little as two years ago, I did consider for a very brief moment having some of our retainers made in Argentina, but then that would have meant laying off two guys with family's...Instead we raised the price and as a result sold less, but the profit margin at the end of the day was still the same and these fellows have there jobs and do them well...

I do drive a VW but if domestic manufacturers would have made a 50mpg diesel car I'd probably have one of those instead. It almost seems like "the pendulum is swinging back" a little bit and some companies that manufacture in USA are doing better because of advantages of that (less time in transit, higher quality including materials and workmanship, etc). I'm paying a lot more attention to this than I was a year ago, and have a letter in the works to a company now talking about moving production to China.

First, let me be clear..I am not saying boycott product that is made out of the country..Quite the contrary actually..Trade is a good thing if both sides make out equally the same. Let me briefly state two examples although I could come up with dozens..I also want to be clear, that I am speaking of governments and authorities, NOT individuals...
1) Lets take Japan..The Japanese people are truly our friends...They have set the bar high for America to follow...They employ millions of Amricans here in the U.S...Speaking of cars, Honda's and Toyota's are manufactured here in the U.S...Many do not know this, but Honda and Toyota are more American than Ford or GM who have cars built in Mexico...Now in defense of Ford and GM, This is a result of the unions...The unions are part of the problem...
In addition the Japanese love American product...Japan Imports almost as Many goods as we get from them...They love our Cars, Foods, performance parts, tools, and many other things...

2) Lets look at China..They are our enemy..Lets face it..They have been caught twice spying on us in the past two years, They raised their value of their currency to match the dollar, thus killing the dollar, They have cheap labor with no regulations to stand by, They are building a military that is capable of taking out the U.S. thanks to ''BILL CLINTON'' for selling them the technology, They are making weapons with the very Titanium and aluminum and precious alloys they get from us and I could keep going and going...
Now what does China do for us? What do they import...Nothing that I could think off..What they do import, they import from other communist countries..China is a problem...

I don't think we can stop sending our precious metals over there - they are used a lot in production of things that aren't made here that we need, specifically electronics. We can buy USA-assembled computers, but the hard drives and keyboards are made in the Far East. OTOH, the Japanese bought a bunch of scrap metal from us preceeding Pearl Harbor...

Exactly

I think Glenn Beck on CNN had a good idea about Debit Cards with the tax rebate. Put on a short expiration date and you'll either "use it or lose it". This would do more to accomplish their goal of getting people to spend it.

I had not heard of this, but I like the idea...

I said once before that I think domestic travel and hiring a contractor would be good things to do to boost the economy. But here in the office I hear people talking about buying electronic stuff undoubtedly made overseas, expanding our trade gap. Do we really think that increasing Best Buy's bottom line is the key to a healthy economy? Personally I don't like the whole thing. A few hundred bucks, and let's say that 50% of the people use it as intended. We have a bit of national debt last I looked. What about a modern version of the CCC projects from the Depression (hiring contractors - many of which are looking for things to do these days)? Just thinking...

As I said above, we need to buy from those who buy from us...It needs to be a fair even trade or as close to it...I know it will likely never happen, but just like you, I am just thinking..

[another view]

First, let me be clear..I am not saying boycott product that is made out of the country..Quite the contrary actually..

We're in agreement on this - I don't see the whole Chinese thing as "fair trade" on many different levels. There are cases where we have painted ourselves into the proverbial corner and have to buy Chinese made products, but in many other cases we do have a choice if we look hard enough. I'm giving extra points to the USA made products when I look for something - like Domke camera bags - but I won't buy junk regardless of where it's made.

While Daimler owned Chrysler, I wondered if someone driving a Dodge Ram would hassle me about my car (I work basically in the construction industry). There really was no difference, German company building vehicles in Mexico...

One thing I've been eyeing are the ultralight down mummy sleeping bags for backpacking. It would fit in really well with sea kayaking, and save me a ton of room over my 3-season poly bag (these newer bags could easily fit inside a 2-litre soda bottle). Most stuff like this is made in the far east since it's pretty labor intensive. There is at least one company who makes them here, Western Mountaineering. If I buy one, I'll send them a letter telling them at least one reason why I bought from them. Chaco (sandals) is the other company I mentioned - they're big on the environment and treating their employees well. They're listed as one of the best employers in Colorado, and closing manufacturing in favor of contracting with China sometime later this year. Those of us who got used to their $100 sandals that last forever (mine are six years old and re-soled) will now spend the same money on stuff that isn't anywhere near as good (I know this is the case because they already have other stuff made in China - long story, but not just speculation here). Keep in mind, you vote with the dollars you spend...

[GB1]

Face it: manufacturing in this country will soon be limited to highly-specialized, technical, and complicated stuff. The run-of-the-mill, labor intensive stuff, like basic camping gear, laundry detergent, toys, etc will just go away to other parts of the world. Even with the shipping costs, the cost of making and delivering those items to the USA is cheaper than making them here.

Welcome to the world economy.

Btw, has anyone noticed how stuff like sleeping bags etc are so much cheaper now than they were 5 years ago? I guess we all benefit from cheap manufacturing costs, even if we lose jobs too.

[another view]

Btw, has anyone noticed how stuff like sleeping bags etc are so much cheaper now than they were 5 years ago? I guess we all benefit from cheap manufacturing costs, even if we lose jobs too.

Not really, what I'm looking at is close to three bills. I guess it's kind of a "high-end" piece of gear but it won't be obselete like another digital camera. I have been using a North Face synthetic bag, and about seven years ago it was about $165. I think it's about the same price today. Maybe the bag I'm looking at is almost "specialty manufacturing", but there are plenty of other similar bags for about the same money that are made overseas. They're about the same money...

I know most manufacturing is headed overseas if it's not there already. Some countries don't have the greatest history with labor practices or environmental protection. I just choose not to support that when possible. Not aimed at you, but in general it seems like a paradox to be in favor of buying gear made in countries that have a bad track record with the environment, when the gear purchased is made to get you out there to enjoy it. And then there's the safety factor - I might put my check towards a kayaking drysuit which can keep you alive in cold water. Do I want to trust my life to a suit made in a country that can't even properly make children's toys? I think the Chinese are really good at making things that look like something else - but performance is something different.

[jgredline]

I know most manufacturing is headed overseas if it's not there already. Some countries don't have the greatest history with labor practices or environmental protection. I just choose not to support that when possible. Not aimed at you, but in general it seems like a paradox to be in favor of buying gear made in countries that have a bad track record with the environment, when the gear purchased is made to get you out there to enjoy it. And then there's the safety factor - I might put my check towards a kayaking drysuit which can keep you alive in cold water. Do I want to trust my life to a suit made in a country that can't even properly make children's toys? I think the Chinese are really good at making things that look like something else - but performance is something different.

I could not have said it any better!!!

[Frog]

I don't get economics at all.
Is there such a thing as an economic system that works because people don't go into debt?

[mn shutterbug]

Btw, has anyone noticed how stuff like sleeping bags etc are so much cheaper now than they were 5 years ago? I guess we all benefit from cheap manufacturing costs, even if we lose jobs too.

Also, has anyone noticed how products made in China or Taiwan tend to wear out much faster? Dewalt tools used to be made in the USA or Canada, now predominanty China. Have the prices dropped to reflect the lower manufacturing costs? Heck no. Do they hold up as well? Once again, no. Now, if I need a power tool, I go to a pawn shop and buy an older one made in the USA. I know it will more than likely outlast a new one made in China. Before I buy anything in a store, I first look to see where it was made. I'll gladly pay another 50% for a USA made product. Actually, I don't completely shy away from anything made in Japan, Germany, Canada or Switzerland either. I just ordered a laminating machine online. Before making the purchase, I made sure it was made in the USA. Just like with Canon, toys from the same brand, can be made in many different countries. I called a Toys R Us to find out which toys were made in the U.S. One brand they mentioned was Fisher Price. However, while helping my mother shop for a toy for my grandson, I noticed all the Fisher Price toys at Walmart, were made in China. I mentioned this to the manager at Toys R Us and they informed that some are made in America and some in China or other countries. Of course, Walmart will handle the most China made products than any other store. After all, they will not be undersold.

[brmill26]

Is there such a thing as an economic system that works because people don't go into debt?

It's possible to operate without debt (speaking of individuals and businesses, not governments). However, no-debt systems do not have as much return as systems that do utilize debt wisely. So, debt quickly enters into any system because it's a much more effective way to invest, if used properly. The problem in America is that there are too many creditors offering easy credit to too many people who don't understand it or, usually, don't need it.

Example of good debt:
A farmer's only source of income is his crop. To create a crop, he needs to buy seed. Say the seed costs $10,000. He buys the seed on credit, he grows his crop, sells it for $30,000. He pays off the the debt. Now he can buy the same amount of seed, or even double, without debt, which benefits him (lower risk) and the seller (paid up front). But without the debt, he couldn't have gotten started in the first place.

The same idea would apply to business startup costs (for which there are tax breaks as well, making that even "better" debt), etc.


Bad debt (we all know these examples):
You're a student with little income - say $500/month. You just spent all your saved up money on a new DSLR, and after too much reading on the web, you have "L" lens envy. You decide a new L lens will instantly cure your photography, walk down to Wolf Camera and pick up a 28-300mm L. Since you're broke after buying your new body, you charge the $2,500 on your credit card. If you put your entire first month's earnings ($500) to paying off the lens, you'd bring the balance to $2,000. But after that first month, the interest rate kicks in at 25%, a normal student rate. From there on out, your $500 is only paying on the interest every month, not decreasing the principle at all. And that's where people get into real trouble, because obviously you have to pay for other things.




On China - remember that the Japanese started off much the same way (so I read), making lower quality products for less. But they caught up. China is already improving greatly. As that happens, capitalism will threaten, and eventually bring down their communist government. The rumblings are already very present. You may be able to keep an uneducated agrarian society at bay, but educated business people with world wide communications like those in China's many large cities can quickly move to change things. Either the Communist party will fade away, as it already is, or it will draw a line in the sand at some point, causing a civil uprising, and they will be overthrown. It's only a matter of time.

Point in case - though this man was arrested, there are 2 greater points: 1) 10,000 people signed their name to his petition, likely knowing it would not be seen favorably by the government (in the least), and 2) the world news knows about it.
http://www.portfolio.com/news-market...st-faces-trial

[GB1]

Mike, AnotherView -

I personally haven't noticed any differences in quality on the Chinese made stuff. Not to say that there aren't any -- I haven't seen any 'high-end' stuff come out of China yet, though I think they could make such items.

High-end items often has diminishing returns (I should know - I have a Nikon system ), and they aren't for everyone. I have a MSR 1-2 person tent - lightweight, well designed, small footprint, easy to set up, low wind profile - that I payed about $200 for. I think I read it was made in the USA (not sure), and it's construction seems above average. The main reason I got it was I eventually want to do some backpacking, but if I just wanted the standard car-camp 3-man tent, I could have gotten one for $40. It all depends on what you need. It's all about value, and I can honestly say that the Chinese stuff seems quite fair for the price.

I kind of compare it to the difference between the high high end cameras that cost $5000 and the next level that cost $1800. The high end ones have specs that only a small percentage of people will need,.. stuff like "Operates in -50 F temperatures", or "Maximum of 8 fps."

I think right now that American built stuff will lean towards the higher end market, where people with those special requirements are willing to pay for it.

[another view]

I think right now that American built stuff will lean towards the higher end market, where people with those special requirements are willing to pay for it.

On the tangent of outdoor gear (oh, yeah, I did that... ), some kayak manufacturers have supposedly been talking about China. Traditionally the choices have been American, Canadian or European (usually UK) made boats, and a fiberglass boat made in any of these countries costs the same (about $3100, give or take about $100-200). By the prices having been the same for the last 8-9 years I've been into it, I took that to mean that shipping costs were almost nothing (that's true, in quantity). Currency exchange rate is a much bigger deal and one of the best UK boats is handled in the US by a guy who really knows the currency market. Anyway, manufacturers are mainly looking at making their high-end boats like fiberglass, kevlar and carbon fiber (those last two cost a bit more) in China because they're so labor intensive. Also, they won't say it but they don't have that pesky EPA kicking them around... The roto-molded plastic boats will still be made in the US (for now) because they're quick to produce.

MSR Tents - I think they bought the old Moss tent company which was totally first rate. Moss was always US made but this was before foreign production was so common (10+ years, I'll guess). Heard that the MSR tents are excellent as well. MSR is very much top-notch gear; curious where they made my Dragonfly stove now...

Credit where credit is due - I have a Cuisinart food processor that I bought shortly after my wife and I got married (11-1/2 years), so let's say it's a good 10 years old. It's built like a tank and always works flawlessly. Not that I use it often, but it seems pretty well made. It was made in China - surprised by that due to the age.

[Loupey]

Now that the Genie is out, the world will seek the lowest state of equilibrium. Those countries which, in the past, enjoyed a higher-than-average standard of living will ratchet lower while the opposite will occur. Newton’s Third Law of Motion applies here as well: “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction”.

Face it: manufacturing in this country will soon be limited to highly-specialized, technical, and complicated stuff.

I don’t see it quite that way. I know many engineering/manufacturing firms which have already moved off-shore. I’m talking about name-brand “American” firms which were secretly developing duplicate engineering groups in China until the final transfer of information was passed so that the American group could be shut down. I think knowledge and quality will improve much faster in China than will their labor rate and standard of living. This will only further increase the rate at which jobs of all disciplines will be sucked in.

I think the American products will eventually become only niche product items - items that can only be sellable due to the loyalty of an ever-shrinking customer base. As a fishing nut, I can tell you that only a small handful of rod manufacturers are still in the US. I’ve always purchased G. Loomis, St. Croix, and Orvis rods. US craftsmanship can fetch prices in the $200~$400 for casting and spinning rods and nearly a grand for fly rods. But I’ve been watching the inventories at stores diminish for these brands over the years. And during the last few years, these manufacturers have introduced low-cost “import” models in an attempt to recapture customers lost by the lure of competitors’ lower priced imports. This kind of trend is nearly impossible to reverse – only slowed.

As long as the demand is there for low cost products, the supply must move along the path of least resistance. My industry is heavy manufacturing, and I’m sad to say I feel that the Golden Age for the US (and most other previously industrialized countries) has passed.

[GB1]

Just want to say that I'm not happy about the USA losing manufacturing jobs... it's just the way it seems to be heading.

An Econ class I took talked about how individuals have strong and weak points, and how that can be applied to countries also. They didn't cover a lot of nations but the instructor said the USA's for example was technology and capital, whereas Mexico's was labor. Seems like a lot of countries will always be cheaper than us. Maybe the only place that isn't is western Europe.

G