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  1. #1
    Senior Member Anbesol's Avatar
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    Legalizing Marijuana

    Hopefully this isn't too taboo a subject here. 13 states have already decriminalized the personal use of Marijuana. Alaska being the most open at 100% legal for personal use and growth. Many states allow its use with Dr's prescription, others simply reduced charges from misdemeanor to petty crimes (you go to traffic court and pay a ticket). Even more conservative states like Nebraska have decriminalized it.

    As much as the public outcry has grown over the past decade, it is surprisingly disappointing that federal legistlators and politicians on the federal level have not addressed this more seriously. Perhaps it is simply still too polarizing a topic to be addressed on a federal level, its not a safe subject for a politician to get into, eh...

    Wondering opinions on this, sorry to stir the pot. (pun intended)
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  2. #2
    project forum co-moderator Frog's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    One of our country's many hypocritical laws. You can drink alcohol all you want as long as you don't drive drunk but you can't smoke some pot in your own house and bother no one doing it. Maybe they want us to have hangovers in the morning.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Medley's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    I'm still on the fence on this one. oregon is one of those states that has a medical marijuana law, and I see it abused a LOT. People are allowed a certain number of plants, usually in the range of two or three, but are routinely being arrested with 40 or 50. And they're protesting the arrest because they have a medical marijuana card. One defendant went so far as to tell a judge that he HAD to produce more than he could personally consume, and sell it (illegally), so that he could afford to pay his medical expenses. :mad2:

    I'm certain that there are medical marijuana users out there that play by all the rules, and quietly go about their lives. But the ones in the above paragraph are the ones making the noise and getting seen and heard. So naturally, they have become the poster children for this cause.

    Add to this the fact that federal officers, claiming that no federal marijuana law exists, have vowed to arrest ALL cardholders for possessing or using a controlled substance, and you have a fairly merry mess.

    Oregon is pretty progressive, but the average person here would tell you that the medical marijuana program isn't working.

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  4. #4
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    The US drug laws are one of the reasons that the Canadian government has not yet started to decriminalize Marijuana. Thy are afraid that if they do they will have to face the US Federal government and that it will cause further delays and tensions at the border.

    So instead they leave the laws on the books and the cops get soft on personal possession and go hard on the major producers and grow ops all over the place in order to make it appear that they have some form of control.

    They just passed a law in Ontario that makes it illegal to drive while stoned on Marijuana. Problem is they have no way of enforcing it without a judges order since the only valid test is a blood test and that is considered too intrusive a procedure to be done under normal consent rules. The cops are saying that they simply cannot enforce the law since none of them want to see a good bust get washed out in court.

    Personally I think that is should be dealt with like alcohol. Find a decent roadside test that is non intrusive (some kind of breathalyser, mouth swap, etc) and tax it. Look at all the tax money lost on pot sales in Canada alone. If they legalized it we could fix the deficit easily within a few years (provided the government doesn't just find another way of spending it as per usual).
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  5. #5
    COEXIST DGK*CRONE's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/...alization.html

    "This Proposition is on the November 4, 2008 General Election Ballot
    in the State of California located here:

    http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/elections_j.htm#1341

    Marijuana Legalization. Individual Rights. Constitutional Amendment.
    Summary Date: 04/08/08
    Circulation Deadline: 09/05/08
    Signatures Required: 694,354

    Proponent: Christopher Springer

    Amends constitution to legalize marijuana and hemp within California and to provide for broad individual constitutional rights, including rights to food, shelter, medical care, and to be free from “unreasonable” taxation. Allows marijuana to be sold in any store that sells alcohol. Establishes local boards with expansive powers, including powers to regulate and tax marijuana. Requires marijuana tax revenues support specified programs. Exempts marijuana sales profits from income tax. Forbids most testing for marijuana used outside the workplace. Prohibits most marijuana, alcohol, and tobacco advertisements. Immunizes marijuana growers and sellers from liability. Summary of estimate by Legislative ****yst and Director of Finance of fiscal impact on state and local government: Potential savings of up to several tens of millions of dollars annually to state and local governments, which would no longer incur the costs of incarcerating and supervising certain marijuana offenders.

    Potential costs of up to the tens of millions of dollars to state and local governments to fund the one-time start-up costs of the local boards. A potentially significant increase in state and local spending on substance abuse treatment services that could possibly be partially or fully offset by revenues from this measure. Potential increased revenues in the tens of millions to low hundreds of millions of dollars annually from marijuana stamps and licenses to support specified programs and the local boards. Unknown but potentially significant increase in state and local revenues from collection of sales and use taxes on the sale of Marijuana. Unknown but potentially significant decrease in state and local revenues from taxes on tobacco and alcohol due to a prohibition of advertising for these goods that would likely result in a decline in sales. (Initiative 08-0009.) The full text is here:

    http://ag.ca.gov/cms_attachments/ini..._compliant.pdf

  6. #6
    Panarus biarmicus Moderator (Sports) SmartWombat's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    Well, the non-pharmaceutical uses can be met by the drug-free varieties being grown at present. Actually we had a laugh when a commercial farm (of the drug-free plants) was raided and the plants nicked, I don't think that the thieves got the high they expected
    PAul

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  7. #7
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    The American House and Senate don't have enough special-interest busywork already? Sorry, I see no benefit to this. Unless I buy stock in snack-food companies.

    I know plenty of people who partake in this stuff. Me? Absolutely not. Stoned people are just like drunks who think they can handle their alcohol. If people want to do this on their own time and I don't have to be around it, cool - I don't really care. But legalizing it cuts into "my" time (i.e. those not in this special interest group) with the House and Senate.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Anbesol's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    The American House and Senate don't have enough special-interest busywork already? Sorry, I see no benefit to this. Unless I buy stock in snack-food companies.
    I am sorry but I think thats a poor position to take. Because it isn't in your self interest, you don't have any interest? I think that we should be concerned about this issue regardless of our personal interest, but as an interest of principal. It is clearly an absurd law, and should be objected to based on principal, not on interest.

    But legalizing it cuts into "my" time with the House and Senate.
    Are you saying that you think that there are priorities higher than this within the house and senate? Is 70 years of waiting not enough time? Its been a serious battle for well over 40 years. And what, the do-nothing house and senate have their plates filled? Considering the socio-economic benefits legalizing would bring to this country, you'd think it would be a very high top priority. Of course, I think the real reason it isn't is that its too polarizing and politicized.

    Anyway, perhaps I misread your statements AV.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Dylan8i's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    let me start off as saying that i feel it should be legalized, even though i don't partake.

    but i also feel that the economical benifits would not be as high as alot of people say simply because it is so easy to grow yourself in pretty much every state.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    Sure, go ahead, legalize it, then when one of your family members is killed by a driver under the influence you will be the first calling for it's banishment again.... Personally I feel there are enough drivers on the road that are either under the influence of booze or legal drugs or talking on their cell phones now to give us enough to worry about than a bunch of idiots smoking pot as they drive down the road.
    There was actually a case here where one guy who several DUI's tried to get out of a DUI case because he said he didn't drink anything... he smoked it..... he also smoked some kid on a bike who will be brain dead as long as he's alive.

    I guess I am against anything that limits a drivers ability to properly operate their vehicle, maybe because while driving an ambulance I was hit by a drunk at 10:30am.

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  11. #11
    Senior Shooter Greg McCary's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    I don't smoke either and am also on the fence. But it does seem the gov't would have a big intrest in legalizing it. They could put a huge sin tax on it like tobacoo and alcohol and make a killing. I think that anyone that really wants to do it already does. But making it legal would increase the numbers that do and clog the legal system with SUI, smoking under the influence. cases.
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  12. #12
    project forum co-moderator Frog's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    Well, no one who is stoned on pot has ever tried to pick a fight with me.
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  13. #13
    Senior Member Dylan8i's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    btw dui = driving under the influence, does not pertain specifically drinking... and smoking under the influence, well that wouldn't clog any legal system if smoking is legal :-D
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Anbesol's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    Prepare for wind, sorry....

    Quote Originally Posted by JSPhoto
    Sure, go ahead, legalize it, then when one of your family members is killed by a driver under the influence you will be the first calling for it's banishment again....
    JS, I am sorry to say, but that sounds like some of the most sensationalized nonsense arguments I've yet heard. For all the reasons its nonsense, add on that to the fact that the way pot affects judgment is significantly different from the way Alcohol impairs judgment. Pot creates heightened visual and audible sensation, if anything, it will actually make the driver more cognitively aware of his surroundings. Most importantly, this all comes down to personal responsibility. A person has the right to purchase a butter knife, but it is their responsibility not to stab anybody with it. Essentially, what I hear in your argument is the same argument against the butter knife. "If we legalize butter knifes, how will you feel if you or a loved one gets stabbed with it?". Its empty rhetoric that misses the point.

    Personally I feel there are enough drivers on the road that are either under the influence of booze or legal drugs or talking on their cell phones now to give us enough to worry about than a bunch of idiots smoking pot as they drive down the road.
    Okay, I smoke pot, I am not ashamed of it, and I appreciate the experience. I have a great driving record, I maintain a full time job, and I am a great father with the happiest 3 year old boy on the planet. Responsible users do exist, in fact, they are the vast majority of users. What you said is incredibly offensive and illustrates a supreme ignorance on the subject. "A bunch of idiots smoking pot" demonstrates that your familiarity and knowledge has not stretched any further than the most elementary and fallacious forms of popular culture. Pot has only been illegal for 72 years, people, including many of the founding fathers, appreciated its experience before such a time. I honestly feel like you are simply flowing with the wind of popular contemporary stigma, without critically analyzing the dynamics. Please have the self honesty to reassess your positioning.

    There was actually a case here where one guy who several DUI's tried to get out of a DUI case because he said he didn't drink anything... he smoked it..... he also smoked some kid on a bike who will be brain dead as long as he's alive.
    This sounds like an urban myth, something created in a rural town to spook kids from smoking. However, whether its true or not is irrelevant, as it still all boils down to personal responsibility. I suppose you also are for gun ownership rights? If so, your same argument can turn back at you tenfold, but its still a false argument. I am also for gun ownership rights - though I don't even have one, based on principle. Besides, harsher gun ownership laws only make it easier for criminals to get them, and harder for good, law abiding citizens to get them. You know what a black market is, right? The intensity and degree of the law decides the workflow and dangers of a black market. The problems of the black market are one of the greatest reasons to legalize it.

    I guess I am against anything that limits a drivers ability to properly operate their vehicle, maybe because while driving an ambulance I was hit by a drunk at 10:30am.
    You know, I think the better way to look at it is you were hit by an irresponsible driver, and a person who clearly made a reckless decision. You associate the substance with the problem, when the real problem is a lack of personal accountability and responsibility. You may as well blame the car, or the streets, or whatever else - the real truth of the matter is that the driver needs to exercise responsibility and he didn't. The problem lies solely on that persons ability to make responsible decisions, not alcohol, not the car.

    People abuse sex, children are even molested often times, and its terrible - should we then outlaw sex? To be totally redundant - personal responsibility!!

  15. #15
    Senior Shooter Greg McCary's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    I agree Dylan. I just think that it ever got to the level that you could buy it at a convenant store more and more would do it and drive impaired. Getting more people killed on the streets. I am certainly not against making it legal just thinking. The gov't could stand to make a fortune in sin tax but I just think in the long run innocent people would get hurt and what is the price for one childs life? Talk to someone who has lost a loved one to an impaired driver. Is it worth it so a few can get high. The gov't has it's reason not to make it legal. I also think that long term use does cause health problems but so does Big Macs and Diet Coke.
    If you make it easier to get it more will do it and just raise the odds of getting someone hurt. Then you have to think of the cost of more cops to police the streets and ER rooms back logged with high drivers getting tested. More tax dollars down the drain keeping them off of the streets.
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  16. #16
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylan8i
    btw dui = driving under the influence, does not pertain specifically drinking... and smoking under the influence, well that wouldn't clog any legal system if smoking is legal :-D
    Do I have this right? You want to see pot legalized so that someone can legally drive when they're as high as a kite? Comparing this to a legal intoxicant, we seem to have done pretty well with this whole drinking and driving thing, right? Alcohol is legal, sold millions of places and advertised in and on just about everything you see. Pretty easy to get booze under age too since it is legal for adults. Ever heard of someone getting a DUI? Legalize pot and there's more of it everywhere.

    Here in Illinois, we enacted a smoking ban on 1/1/08. Since I'm an ex-smoker, the smell of it is pretty repulsive. One person lights a joint and then a bunch of people have to smell it - even if it's outside. And the smell sticks around for awhile...

    Back when I was in college I was more neutral about this subject. "In a perfect world" it would be great if everyone could make their own choices. We're far from a perfect world. Just as much as everybody wants the freedom to do whatever they want, they'll turn around and point their finger at someone else at the first sign of trouble. Nobody takes any personal responsibility.

    I can't believe I'm taking the time to reply again in this thread... Legalize pot? Lame.

  17. #17
    Stop Or I'll Shoot Photography Lori11's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    I'm going to step lightly on this soap box. I agree with JS totally. I have detoxed 100's of people over many years in the treatment centers who "relpased" pretty word for drinking or using again, on pot which leads them right back to their drug of choice and the results are not pretty. Lots of legal substances are abused, the list is endless, so basically the only reason for making pot legal would be to not be arrested for possition of it. DUI applies to all chemicals, not just alcohol. Look how narcotics are "protected" yet abused insainly. So since this is for the purpose (in my opinion) of arresting someone or not, it seems like a lot of time and money wasted on this. Pun intended

  18. #18
    Senior Member Anbesol's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    Lori - tell me really now do you actually have people come to your treatment center for smoking pot?
    I can't believe I'm taking the time to reply again in this thread... Legalize pot? Lame.
    *Another-View: What an elitist, snotty thing to say. Oh view, do you honestly think you are better than a pot smoker? Do you look down your nose at them? Well, I don't know you, but I do know that you clearly know absolutely nothing about pot, and you aren't afraid of exuding your arrogant ignorance of it either.
    Pretty easy to get booze under age too since it is legal for adults. Ever heard of someone getting a DUI? Legalize pot and there's more of it everywhere.
    *AV: Actually, alcohol related crimes hit their worst point, exponentially, the 13 years it was illegal (1920-33). It wasn't just by a little, alcohol related crimes rose tenfold during that time, it created a black market, and it pushed users into the shadows. The Mafia then had work, and the mafia grew a hundredfold. As prohibition clearly demonstrated to us, outlawing something does not work well for *anybody*, ordinary civilians and users alike.
    Last edited by Anbesol; 08-22-2008 at 01:50 PM.

  19. #19
    Stop Or I'll Shoot Photography Lori11's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    WOW, I didnt expect to be attacked for an opinion.First of all, thats not my quote, that quote came from another post above mine, second its not MY treatement center, but yes, pleanty came for pot addiction. Arrogant? I think not, sadly I know more about pot, alcohol and narcotics than anyone should and even though I am gritting my teeth here because of what I am about to type, I will admit, that in Sept I will be clean and sober 20 years. I have tons of friends who drink and do other things I am sure, they dont seem to have a problem, I did. So I begrudge no one, I simply stated an opinion. I do apologize to anyone I offended, Now I do feel slighty hummiliated, so you win I guess.
    Oh, and as for the Mafia comment? The Cosa Nosta doesnt exist

  20. #20
    Senior Member Anbesol's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by Lori11
    WOW, I didnt expect to be attacked for an opinion.First of all, thats not my quote, that quote came from another post above mine, second its not MY treatement center, but yes, pleanty came for pot addiction. Arrogant? I think not, sadly I know more about pot, alcohol and narcotics than anyone should and even though I am gritting my teeth here because of what I am about to type, I will admit, that in Sept I will be clean and sober 20 years. I have tons of friends who drink and do other things I am sure, they dont seem to have a problem, I did. So I begrudge no one, I simply stated an opinion. I do apologize to anyone I offended, Now I do feel slighty hummiliated, so you win I guess.
    Oh, and as for the Mafia comment? The Cosa Nosta doesnt exist
    Lori - I realize those quotes were not you, I apologize, I should have addressed the individuals who stated them - I didn't mean for that response to be directed towards you, only the first sentence.

    As a reformed addict and working with addicts, you certainly must agree and recognize that when it comes to addiction - the problems lay deeper than the substance. The drug use is then not the source, but the symptom of the problem. The worst thing that anyone can do is blame the substance, and think that the problem goes away when the substance does.

  21. #21
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by Anbesol
    *Another-View: What an elitist, snotty thing to say. Oh view, do you honestly think you are better than a pot smoker? Do you look down your nose at them? Well, I don't know you, but I do know that you clearly know absolutely nothing about pot, and you aren't afraid of exuding your arrogant ignorance of it either.
    You're absolutely right - you don't know me.

  22. #22
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    Lori, I think he was talking to Anotherview from the post above yours in regards to his statement "legalize pot....lame"

    Now as a recovering addict myself I can agree with the fact that many people do relapse into other drugs by re-starting with pot. Those people however are the type of people who would relapse to their drug of choice if they were accidentally given Tylenol 3 with Codeine. They would start the cravings and jones for something more the second it hits their system. Those people are true addicts in the sense that their condition is hard wired into them. They cannot enjoy a sociable drink like the majority of the population. They cannot enjoy a social toke with friends at a party. Their wagon is too far to fall from and once they do it is a long climb back up.

    I on the other hand will say this, kind of arrogantly, that the type of addict I was was different. I can still drink socially. I can still smoke the occasional joint. I do not crave nor do I have the desire to fallback into my drug of choice (Meth/coke) With the physically dependent drugs vs. the mentally dependent drugs there is a different to the majority of the planet. For an addict there is no different. If they have a dependent personality they will always be dependent. Most addicts are still dependent on something other than drugs to maintain social norms. They're addicted to video games now, or shopping, or gambling. They find something less harmful to themselves. I said MOST not all. Others can find the strength within themselves to maintain sobriety (I am guessing that Lori falls into this category) Those people are to be commended. They have much stronger willpower than most of us will ever know.

    Legalizing pot would mainly do two things. It would eliminate the social smoker/high school experimenter from suffering a criminal record for possessing a small amount of pot and allow them to correct their ways and live life afterwards without the stigma forced on them by a casual mistake. It would also clear out a TON of court cases and reduce the costs in the court system

    second it would remove the ability for the illegal element/bikers/gangs/etc from making a profit on it.

    Then it becomes a police matter in regards to impaired motoring just like alcohol is. I do not drink and drive nor do I smoke and drive. That is a conscious decision I make for myself and my kids and the lives of everyone around me when I am driving. Does this make me better than anyone else? nope. It makes me a smart/responsible smoker/drinker and a caring human being. Caring for ones neighbor (meaning whoever is next to you or nearby) is one of our social tennets that we strive for everyday. In a perfect world that is all we would need.

    Too bad we don't live in a perfect world.
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  23. #23
    Senior Member Anbesol's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by another view
    You're absolutely right - you don't know me.
    What a rebuttal. I thought you were too good to post in such a terrible thread? I mean, why would you want to associate with any of us dirty rotten not-as-good-as-you smokers? Excuse my inability to grovel, your highness.

  24. #24
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    Quote Originally Posted by Anbesol
    What a rebuttal. I thought you were too good to post in such a terrible thread? I mean, why would you want to associate with any of us dirty rotten not-as-good-as-you smokers? Excuse my inability to grovel, your highness.
    Might want to avoid turning this personal. Just a friendly little reminder.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Anbesol's Avatar
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    Re: Legalizing Marijuana

    AV - you made rude and very judgmental comments. I was simply responding to your offensiveness with a little sass. I'm just trying to fuel the fire, nothing personal.

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