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  1. #1
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    don't tase me, bro! Asylum Steve's Avatar
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    J. Edgar Hoover would be proud...

    I can't quite say I think this idea is completely wrong, but it does make you think.

    Reminds me of the extensive FBI "domestic spying" that was routine under good ole' J. Edgar Hoover's watch...
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  3. #3
    Panarus biarmicus Moderator (Sports) SmartWombat's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic spying?

    Land of the free?

    It's no different from what we've been through with CND and the Greenham Common protesters.
    Except our goverment hasn't been caught yet.
    PAul

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  4. #4
    is back jar_e's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic spying?

    Every government is monitoring its citizens in someway; to believe otherwise would be absurd.

    It's a slippery slope.

    Jared

  5. #5
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic spying?

    Yaaaaaaaay! Can we impeach him yet?
    Walter Rick Long
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  6. #6
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    Frightening Beyond Belief

    Quote Originally Posted by adina
    It is getting even worse and scarier. Not only did Bush authorize illegal spying on Americans (and insists it will continue), now we have proof that Homeland Security (Ministry of Peace?) is monitoring the library activities of students.

    This student requested an interlibrary loan of Mao's Little Red Book for a paper on communism. He was visited and grilled by two HS agents about this "suspicious" activity. They never gave him the book he had ordered. In addition, classes being offered at UMass are now being reviewed to avoid "government trouble" for students.

    http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily...5/a09lo650.htm

    Bush and his anti-American cronies are moving faster and faster towards a police state in the name of saving us from terrorism. The Bill of Rights is being trashed, the Constitution is joke to Bush. Torture is now a "necessary evil" for the USA. To achieve the ultimate control, they must first scare the people, control information, and stifle and guide education.

    The terrorists have succeeded in severely wounding America beyond their wildest dreams. The administration that should be protecting us from enemies " both foreign and domestic" have become the domestic terrorists themselves. Worse yet, a good chunk of citizens are approving of all these actions. Dictatorships don't just happen, they are created by a weak and ignorant public.

    Need I quote it once again? I guess so. From Benjamin Franklin:

    "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security".
    "Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake. The ripples merge and rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.

  7. #7
    is back jar_e's Avatar
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    Re: Frightening Beyond Belief

    Wonder what the fallout will be when Bush's term ends? Think the next president (republican or not) will clean it up?

  8. #8
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    Re: Domestic spying?

    Nope....they will always have the excuse of national security, and they will always use it.
    They have always done it in the past, and rarely got caught, or get caught. The CIA has for years listened in on calls going overseas, ame with the FBI, all long before 911, and have done so since the 1940's. It got especially bad during the cold war years, and it's how the US caught a number of spy's.
    Today they monitor email as well as phone calls.I sometimes wonder if some of the keylogger programs were devised by the CIA or FBI.

    JS

  9. #9
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    Re: Domestic spying?

    Hi all...well..you got me started...I don't blame Bush...I blame the American people, because they allow it. IF we, the people, wanted to, we could stop it, but, we continue to allow it. As many of you already know, I am a Vietnam Vet...volunteer..not draft!! The reason I volunteered was because I believe in the freedoms the United States is supposed to be noted for. Well, under the recent administrations...we are no longer free!!!! We might as well add a swastika and a hammer and sicle to Old Glory!!! It would be more appropriate. I'm sure the "original" George and all of the founding fathers are turning over in their graves. Oh and by the way...I guess all of us Loyal Americans who think we have the right to free speech, can now expect a visit from HS (Hitler Security), because of our comments here. I say...let 'em come...I AM AN AMERICAN. SIEG HEIL, MEINE FUHRER BUSH!!!! (feel free to correct my American...errrr...I mean my German!!! :-(
    Ken
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  10. #10
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    Re: Frightening Beyond Belief

    Quote Originally Posted by jar_e
    Wonder what the fallout will be when Bush's term ends? Think the next president (republican or not) will clean it up?
    No. Once power is given, it is close to impossible to take it back. "Mad With Power" is a bipartisan disease.
    "Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake. The ripples merge and rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.

  11. #11
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    Re: Frightening Beyond Belief

    I sleep, but I don't rest.

  12. #12
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: Frightening Beyond Belief

    Paraphrased from a conversation on NPR this morning:

    Bill Clinton was impeached for lying about sex. George Bush has acted unConstitutionally in a way that threatens to set a dangerous standard for presidents in our future. If Bush is allowed to act "however he wants" in wartime, where do the limits fall on the next president? How he will be judged depends on the stance he takes from here on; if he relents, apologizes, says it was wrong, he will be forgiven and the impeachment will not occur. However, if he persists in his "you can't tell me what to do" policy and insists that his behavior was justified, he will be impeached.
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  13. #13
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: Frightening Beyond Belief

    I also didn't hear about this until recently:

    Pentagon pays Iraqi newspapers to run positive news stories about war written by US sources:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...ationworld-hed

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...home-headlines

    Seriously, folks, has he done anything right?
    Walter Rick Long
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  14. #14
    is back jar_e's Avatar
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    Re: Frightening Beyond Belief

    Albeit he invaded Iraq, atleast he hasn't touched North Korea...that's a problem a million times worse than Iraq. I guess that isn't necessairly a good thing; just something he hasn't done.

  15. #15
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    War?

    Quote Originally Posted by walterick
    Paraphrased from a conversation on NPR this morning:

    ,,,If Bush is allowed to act "however he wants" in wartime, where do the limits fall on the next president? ...
    I hope that everyone realizes that no war has been officially declared by Congress, there is no "wartime" stance. The court rulings being quoted by Bush and Company are all from WW II, a time when war was real, named, and declared. In fact, I am almost certain that WW II was the last time this country has really been at war.
    "Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake. The ripples merge and rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.

  16. #16
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    Re: Frightening Beyond Belief

    Quote Originally Posted by walterick
    Paraphrased from a conversation on NPR this morning:

    Bill Clinton was impeached for lying about sex. George Bush has acted unConstitutionally in a way that threatens to set a dangerous standard for presidents in our future. If Bush is allowed to act "however he wants" in wartime, where do the limits fall on the next president? How he will be judged depends on the stance he takes from here on; if he relents, apologizes, says it was wrong, he will be forgiven and the impeachment will not occur. However, if he persists in his "you can't tell me what to do" policy and insists that his behavior was justified, he will be impeached.
    [sarcasm]

    Who cares about the Constitutiont if we can catch one man lying about a blowjob?? [/sarcasm]

    (Note - In case you missed the preceeding sarcasm tags, the above was meant to be sarcastic)

    Now that I've gotten it out of the way, Bush won't apologize. He's already stated that the Constitution is just a piece of paper, and I expect that he (or his advisors) would just as soon take a red pen to it. That's a very dangerous man to have in office, but I don't think the alternatives were any better. I don't look forward to 2008...
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  17. #17
    Jedi Master masdog's Avatar
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    Re: Frightening Beyond Belief

    Quote Originally Posted by walterick
    I also didn't hear about this until recently:

    Pentagon pays Iraqi newspapers to run positive news stories about war written by US sources:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...ationworld-hed

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...home-headlines

    Seriously, folks, has he done anything right?
    Well, lets see. He's got our economy tanked as more jobs move offshore. We're occupying two countries, and the war in Iraq has alienated most of our allies (the few that still support us are facing huge political pressure at home to withdrawl). The Federal government has reached all new levels of power with programs like No Child Left Behind and the PATRIOT ACT, although no one can show how effective they are.

    Well...at least I feel safer.

    Oh wait....I don't.
    Sean Massey
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  18. #18

  19. #19
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    Wow, The Truth Is Even Worse!

    It started being reported today that Bush has authorized not only the NSA but the FBI as well to do widespread spying on Americans. He lied when he claimed it was only "suspected terrorists." Unless, of course, you believe the AG's "revised" statements that clearly indicate that anyone who disagrees with Bush policies must be a considered a potential terrorist. All sorts of organizations and individuals have been targeted. The spying is pervasive.

    The stories are being released as I write this. Keep an eye on the news today. I used to believe that people who claimed that 9/11 was staged were complete lunatics. But now, I'm not so sure.
    "Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake. The ripples merge and rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.

  20. #20
    is back jar_e's Avatar
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    Re: Wow, The Truth Is Even Worse!

    Michael,

    Being quite a conspiracy researcher, it's interesting on some of the theories appearing about 9/11. Though I would not call any of the evidence strong, there is alot of evidence that they provide to support their position. I'm not sure what I believe; I wish it wasn't staged, but I know that it very well could be.

    Jared

  21. #21
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    Re: Domestic spying?

    It is amazing how we are all so quick to blame our own people for the problems we have. Why is nobody blaming the terrorists and backing our country in this time of war, just or not. We are in it and have no choice but to finish it for our future and our kids future.

    In no way did Bush ask for the all the scenarios that were through at him the past 5 years. But if you actually look at the economy, housing markets, unemployment rates, income rates, you will see that we are doing very well considering all of the disasters, the war, and Bush weather you like him or not. Ask yourself are you better off monetarily then you were 5-10 years ago? When most people are asked this question they answer yes, but they (think) the US is doing poorly. I know me and most of the people I know are doing very well.

    Bush is going to be in the White House for the next two years and that’s it! (Disclaimer………I am not a republican or a democrat) I feel that all this complaining about the situations only make them worse. I have the corporate mentality, where as if you don’t have an idea to fix the problem SHUT UP! The democrats seem to have a lot to complain about rather then working with, compromising (both sides), and working harder to dig up BS on everyone. Where is all the positives, where is all the good that this country does. We do more good then any media outlet lets you know…. Even FOX!

    With the spying and such, we have to believe that it is being used the correct ways. I have nothing to hide, listen to my boring conversation with my mother or my wife I don’t care…. Just stop another 9/11. Since this country was founded there was spying, the difference is now we are hearing about it. The worst thing about that is if we know, our enemies know also, I don’t want to know anything about the spying, do the job, whatever it takes to keep America and its allies safe. So if we don’t do these things that are necessary in this day and age, who will be blamed for the lack of intelligence when we are struck again? (BUSH right)

    This is a difficult and a non winning discussion. Being a free society we will all have our opinions and are free to voice them. Just be intelligent about you views, don’t blame anyone (besides the terrorists), do research and find the facts to support your views(multiple sources, not the media), have ways to correct what you feel is wrong, support your country, its allies, and troops, Don’t try to change or complain about the unchangeable and look forward to a strong and successful future.

    P.S. Shutterman has some good links to from multiple sources on different topics. Very good reading. Way to try ot balance it out!!
    Last edited by LensCrazy; 12-31-2005 at 12:36 PM.
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  22. #22
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    Re: Domestic spying?

    Quote Originally Posted by LensCrazy
    It is amazing how we are all so quick to blame our own people for the problems we have. Why is nobody blaming the terrorists and backing our country in this time of war, just or not. We are in it and have no choice but to finish it for our future and our kids future.
    This country supported the war in Afganastan and still does. What the majority of us don't support is the nonsense in Iraq. Iraq had NO ties to terrorists, NO WMDs, NO "launch weapons in 45 minutes", NO terrorist training bases... Bush proved himself to be a compulsive liar, why would any sane person trust him? Now, we find out about the questionable, if not illegal spying going on. As Republicans used to say, we need integrity in the White House.

    In no way did Bush ask for the all the scenarios that were through at him the past 5 years. But if you actually look at the economy, housing markets, unemployment rates, income rates, you will see that we are doing very well considering all of the disasters, the war, and Bush weather you like him or not. Ask yourself are you better off monetarily then you were 5-10 years ago? When most people are asked this question they answer yes, but they (think) the US is doing poorly. I know me and most of the people I know are doing very well.
    Actually, most people are saying no, they are not doing better. Look at the polls. When Clinton left office, the economy was booming, we had a balance budget, we had no major overseas wars. Clinton was liked in spite of his sleeping around. Why do you think that Bush wanted his record as governor sealed during the 2000 election? He destroyed the booming Texas economy as well.

    In just a few months, BEFORE 9/11, Bush started destroying the country. His massive tax cuts for the wealthy blew apart the balanced budget and increased the national debt leaps and bounds over any other president. He operated with Voodoo Economics, "spend lots more, take in much less." After 9/11, when Bush finally caught his breath, just what did he do? It took forever to react, forever to go to Afganastan. The mayor of NYC was the hero (as much as I disliked him), Bush did little other than talk.

    Bush is going to be in the White House for the next two years and that’s it! (Disclaimer………I am not a republican or a democrat) I feel that all this complaining about the situations only make them worse.
    No complaining would yield many more problems. Without opposition, we would already be a dictatorship.

    I have the corporate mentality, where is if you don’t have an idea to fix the problem SHUT UP! The democrats seem to have a lot to complain about rather then working with, compromising (both sides), and working harder to dig up BS on everyone.
    The Republicans started this after their heads blew up when Clinton won twice. They changed the rules of the game, if you can't win, smear the winners. Democrats, and Republicans still, have taken this as the new norm of behavior.

    Where is all the positives, where is all the good that this country does. We do more good then any media outlet lets you know…. Even FOX!
    A powerful nation can do powerful good or powerful bad. They always do both. We pick and chooose who our friends are, China is our special friend, Cuba is a national threat. We have always done things that benefit us. That's not good nor bad, just the truth. We have the most money (for now), we should do the most.

    With the spying and such, we have to believe that it is being used the correct ways. I have nothing to hide, listen to my boring conversation with my mother or my wife I don’t care…. Just stop another 9/11.
    This is the attitude that Franklin and others who framed the constitution worried about. People are always like this, government is good, government is benelovant, government is doing what is best for us. I have nothing to hide... This is why there are so many dictatorships all over the world. We have checks and balances for a reason. The spying is ugly in itself, but but the underhanded methods used are even worse. Government that works in the shadows is dangerous, period.

    Bush keeps trying to prove a negative: "See my policies have worked, there have been no more 9/11 attacks." Guess what, my secret plans were aimed at preventing elephant stampedes charging down Main Stree. I must be doing well, there haven't been any.

    Since this country was founded there was spying, the difference is now we are hearing about it. The worst thing about that is if we know, our enemies know also, I don’t want to know anything about the spying, do the job, whatever it takes to keep America and its allies safe. So if we don’t do these things that are necessary in this day and age, who will be blamed for the lack of intelligence when we are struck again? (BUSH right)
    Read the 9/11 report. We had massive amounts of intelligence about 9/11 before it happened. In fact, there was so much intelligence that no one was able to put it together. We don't need more intelligence, we need smarter and more coordinated intelligence. You don't get this sitting in the shadows and spying on Americans, reducing the Bill of Rights to bird cage use, and interrogating Americans who order Mao's Little Red Book on interlibrary loan for a class.

    This is a difficult and a non winning discussion. Being a free society we will all have our opinions and are free to voice them. Just be intelligent about you views, don’t blame anyone (besides the terrorists), do research and find the facts to support your views(multiple sources, not the media), have ways to correct what you feel is wrong, support your country, its allies, and troops, Don’t try to change or complain about the unchangeable and look forward to a strong and successful future.
    Wow, I really hate to say this, but this is just the voice of the beaten. Supporting the country does not mean supporting individulas, politicians no less, who are currently in charge. Bush gets credit for the good and blame for the bad on his watch. This is the way it works for all presidents. Bush has been the worst president in my lifetime, some 55 years. He is, by far, the dumbest president, not an insult just a fact. His Nixon-like lust for power scares me, the people around him are even more dangerous. Pretty words may stir the soul but they do not change the cold and sobering facts.
    "Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake. The ripples merge and rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.

  23. #23
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    Re: Domestic spying?

    Also, having a wife that is Brasilian has opened my eyes to many things.

    First, how the world views America. I find it hard to believe that with all the economic support, aid, ect. Most of these countries still find time to bash us. Out of all the nations we are the most giving. And you would find that a lot of these people wish hey lived here.

    Second, Going to Brasil tons of times and viewing the drastic life differences, I have realized that the US is a very spoiled nation. We take all of it for granted and then spit on the Government that gives it to us. SPOILED ROTTEN BRATS we are. These Brasilians have pride from the wealthy to the larger of the population (poor), with a corrupt government, ever changing mostly bad economy, horrible unemployment, they still all have the flag on their cars, bikes, shoes, shirts. You would think you they were trying to sell you on it or that it was Flag Day. But no this is their country and they support it no matter what 365 24/7.

    Yes there are many things that should be changed in the US, from taxes to social security, our system is not perfect. But by internally bashing each other what do we prove? Only that we are unstable, and easily flustered, either by terrorist, government, economy. The terrorist surly sit in their cave at night and laugh at us, as we have our own verbal civil wars everyday. By the country being so divided the terrorist are getting exactly what they want instability in the US.

    The President is a very small part of any of these changes, most of these changes take years even decades due to the bickering, phyla busters, and straight up politics partisan crap.
    To have a healthy government we all need to drop our labels, not worry about political agendas and work towards common goals, a better, safer, happier USA.
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  24. #24
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    Re: Domestic spying?

    [QUOTE=Michael Fanelli]
    This country supported the war in Afganastan and still does. What the majority of us don't support is the nonsense in Iraq. Iraq had NO ties to terrorists, NO WMDs, NO "launch weapons in 45 minutes", NO terrorist training bases... Bush proved himself to be a compulsive liar, why would any sane person trust him? Now, we find out about the questionable, if not illegal spying going on. As Republicans used to say, we need integrity in the White House.
    What's terror and who are terrorists? Aquaintances in Tel Aviv weren't real happy with Iraq shooting SCUD missles at them. Iran didn't like losing millions of its citizens in a pointless war. Kuwait was minding its own business and Iraq just marched in and confiscated all their Rolls Royces and Mercedes Benzs, the BMWs they left for taxi cabs. The Saudi's were real upset with artillery battles on their borders and SCUD missles coming close to populated areas.

    The Kurds, those still alive anyway, would happily take you on a tour of cemeteries filled with victims of chemical attacks. Very few countries have any 45 minute launch weapons that aren't already aimed at someone. I haven't trusted a national politician in my life. As long as I repeat the mantra that has something to do with politics being about compromise I don't foam at the mouth too often. So far anyway there are not answering machine tapes floating around about Bush and his purported prevarications. Not a Bush fan. Not a Bush man. But so happy Gore didn't get 4 let alone more.




    Actually, most people are saying no, they are not doing better. Look at the polls. When Clinton left office, the economy was booming, we had a balance budget, we had no major overseas wars. Clinton was liked in spite of his sleeping around. Why do you think that Bush wanted his record as governor sealed during the 2000 election? He destroyed the booming Texas economy as well.
    Booming economy, huh? Global Crossing, Enron, Arthur Andersen Accouting, MCI, dot.crazy.money.gone. Need we say more about the supposed wonderful '90s.

    Of course there weren't any major wars overseas. We choose to ignore them. Remember the Balkans? Sure, just a drop in the bucket. How about the 50+million, yes MILLION who died in Central Africa. O.K. they only made up a couple of percentage points of the UN budget. No Big Deal, right? Sri Lanka, before the tsunami? Don't know anybody who lives there now, they all live a few miles from here (or at least all that I know). Not much war, its just some regional conflicts.
    And as I recall the guy who really sealed up the papers of all his past actions was that true american Yankee, what was his name? Oh, yeah Howard Dean.

    In just a few months, BEFORE 9/11, Bush started destroying the country. His massive tax cuts for the wealthy blew apart the balanced budget and increased the national debt leaps and bounds over any other president. He operated with Voodoo Economics, "spend lots more, take in much less." After 9/11, when Bush finally caught his breath, just what did he do? It took forever to react, forever to go to Afganastan. The mayor of NYC was the hero (as much as I disliked him), Bush did little other than talk.
    I still wonder what I get for some of my taxes. I see the average college student, those that can actually get enough class time to graduate winding up with crushing debt that prior to the '90's was actually payable for the majority. Admittedly it was becoming a lot money before then, but there was a marked increase. We've seen Public Health (and I'm not talking about health care for individuals) all but totally dismantled. We've seen great and secret comittees who spent money in $100 million dollar increments to tell us that health care was in trouble. I saw the destruction of most of the major research organizations and their accumulated knowledge, because they were military/defense oriented. Then there was the refunding of research, which meant that a new group started over and rediscovered a bunch of lost 'gems'. Billions spent on the war against tobacco (a good thing generally) except they still sell it at the same place they have for 20+years. I do for some odd reason miss the sound of vending machines . . . (don't want to buy cigarettes out of them, just like the clunk at the back of the cafeteria).


    No complaining would yield many more problems. Without opposition, we would already be a dictatorship.
    I do agree we need opposition. I just prefer an opposition (which ever way they lean) to have viable alternative and not just be opposed on principle.


    The Republicans started this after their heads blew up when Clinton won twice. They changed the rules of the game, if you can't win, smear the winners. Democrats, and Republicans still, have taken this as the new norm of behavior.
    The Republicans started what? In 1991 and 1992 the crap that was being circulated about what would happen if Clinton didn't win was amazing? And remember Ross? He was right about one thing, there was a big sucking sound. I'm just not sure yet what I heard.




    I've actually seen an elelphant stampede. If anyone is fool enough to believe that someone is going to stop one, they will get what they deserve. Caveat emptor, or caveat citizen.



    Intelligence is what we get from the data we collect. Is a crime a crime if no one gets caught? All parties need to think about that one. I hope the reader know the answer to that with out prompting.

    I'm not quite 55 but I was born during the Eisenhower Presidency and for my money Johnson was by far and away the worst leader we have had. Nixon was a crook and should have gone to prison, but he did a lot more positive than all but a handful of Presidents ever. That's an interesting topic for another day.

    Before we let all of our personal dislikes of Bush and his cronies cloud our intellect beyond reason, think of what he could have done after 9/11. Someone, perhaps the 'hidden hand of fear itself' prevented complete devastation of large portions of the earth. We still could be living under military rule, there could be an underground resistance movement somewhere outside of Snoqualimie (just the first place that came to mind), and all the barbed wired produced in the past decade could be surrounding Western Minnesota and the Dakotas. It sorta of happened before.

    What the h*** does this have to do with surveillance, I'm not sure, but I've had Telephone companies as customers in several capacities. They pay their bills, they ask you to pay your bill, and if they know who I'm talking too and what I'm doing with the phone line, I'm not surprised. Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, etal never conceived of the nation we now have. That came about nearly 100 years later. We briefly split into fragments. I hope we learned that lesson from history and don't charge down another path of mutally exclusive moral certitude and righteous indignation. No one wins those battles. I've got a family cemetary full of proof.

    Happy and hopefully Peaceful New Year to ALL!

    [I reserve the right to edit this at will as this was completely a flow of conscience rap!)
    CDPrice 'drg'
    Biography and Contributor's Page


    Please do not edit and repost any of my photographs.






  25. #25
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    Last Call

    LOL! What a firestorm. Here is my last contribution to this thread.

    First, when I said that Dubya is the dumbest president since I've been alive, I meant it. That has nothing to do with presidents I like or don't like. For example, I intensely disliked Nixon but he was extremely intelligent. We are talking about old-fashioned down-home stupid here. In my personal opinion, he may be mildly disabled. Listen to him when he is talking without a prepared statement. See how confused the guy gets when presented with off-script material and situations. I am no fan of Bush yet it still pains me sometimes to see him floundering like that.

    Bush is stuck in "concrete" mode. Children have very concrete thinking, the abstract is tough if not impossible for them. As teenagers, most develop the ability to move their thinking up a notch, to embrace concepts and ideas that are complex and not simply black-and-white. Others, such as Bush, are very literal and never progress further.

    Someone mentioned LBJ. Yeah, LBJ was obsessed with Vietnam and turned a skirmish into a major disaster. But he also called up every favor in his book to get southern Democrats to vote for civil rights legislation. He had true compassion for the poor and for children. A bad president? Yes. A dumb president? Not a chance. He was intelligent even while extremely wrong.

    The "War on Terror" is no different than the "War on Drugs", "The War on Porn", the "War on Poverty", etc. Its not a real war, it will never end and never be successful. Administration officials have admitted that. Bush wants the onerous Patriot Act to be made permanent to "combat" this permanent war. In other words, trash the Constitution and the Bill of Rights for good.

    The intense and widespread spying on Americans was so dreadful that the New York Times sources were all from NSA employees. Imagine that, the NSA frightened about what they were being asked to do! Then the FBI leaked information from their agency dealing with the extensive spying they were being asked to do.

    Bush claims that his spying on citizens is not illegal based almost completely on rulings made during a real war, WW II. You know, the one where Congress actually passed a formal declaration of war. He brags about there being no lawsuits opposing him. Well, only the aggrieved parties are allowed to sue and their names are all classified! How convenient.

    Bush is so concerned about terrorism that he commits more than 6 billion dollars each month to Iraq but ignores the millions who pour over our open borders. In fact, he want to reward these people with citizenship, snubbing his nose at those who go through the long, and legal, process. States and private citizens are now trying to fight back, defend our borders. That is one of the few real obligations of the federal government under the Constitution but our federal government is too busy elsewhere.

    Government conducted in the shadows is dictatorship, pure and simple. No checks, no balances, just the administration making unilateral decisions critical to America's freedoms. If he had followed the law, if he had consulted the special courts even after the fact... No, he felt, and still feels, that he alone knows what best for the rest of us.

    But the worst of all is the meek capitulation of so many Americans. In the name of fear, in the name of combatting terrorism, in the name of feeling safe, in the name of the sad old canard "I have nothing to hide", citizens are ALLOWING Bush to continue these heinous actions.

    People always see only their own selfish and immediate needs. When Hitler came to power, he only persecuted those who had nothing to do with the majority of Germans. When he consolidated that power and started large scale persecution of Jews, gypsies, etc. the vast majority of Germans didn't worry because they had "nothing to hide." Even during most of the war, it was never close enough to home to care all that much. They were "Good Germans."

    It really saddens me to see people here using the same excuse fhere in the United States: "I have nothing to hide so who cares?" Too many "Good Americans" for a healthy society to continue.

    There are other things I could list and expand upon but I won't. The destruction of the economy is easy to see. The downgrading of education and outsourcing of jobs, even defense related, is simple to track. Our continuing coddling of China whose economy is attacking us on all sides is clear. Arguments that other countries have it worse than us so everything is OK.

    The barbarians are at the gates and all of us, not just Bush, are covering our eyes and denying it.
    "Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake. The ripples merge and rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.

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