Can people really be this stoopid?

So, I was at work, and was focused on completing my charting when I overheard some techs talking about Obama.....At first I was just listening, and then when one said that "I cain't vote for him, I cain't vote for a mooslim".......I kinda chuckled and kept working on my charts....One of the nurses spoke up and said "You know that he's not a muslim, right?" The tech said, well, everything he's seen says that he's a mooslim, and then he proceeded to say "Every president we've ever had, has been a christian......our founders were all good christians". I sit there for a second, but then, not being able to bite my tongue any longer, I reply, "You do realize that Washington was not a christian, I mean he was born an Episcopalian, but renounced this later, right?"...The guy looks at me, "Well, my pastor says that all of our founders were good christian men".......I say, "Well, I'm sorry to say that your pastor is completely and utterly WRONG on this point." SO, I show him some quotes.....

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...."
-Ben Franklin

“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” Benjamin Franklin Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”

“He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.”

“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.”

“Some volumes against Deism fell into my hands. They were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle’s Lecture. It happened that they produced on me an effect precisely the reverse of what was intended by the writers; for the arguments of the Deists, which were cited in order to be refuted, appealed to me much more forcibly than the refutation itself. In a word, I soon became a thorough Deist.” Benjamin Franklin, from his autobiography


“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” George Washington Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” John Adams

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” John Adams, Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

“But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.” John Adams, letters to family and other leaders 1735-1826

“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

“In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.”
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” James Madison, April 1, 1774



So I show him these...and unbelievably, he says, "well, I don't think that they wrote those, and I stand by what my pastor says"......

I reply, "Well, they believed in god, just not jesus. They were deists, the closest church in current existence to their belief structure is probably the Unitarian church."

His reply..."Well, I don't believe that, and sorry, but I think you're completely wrong".

I reply, "Of course, you have empiric evidence of my fallacies?"

He's like, "Nope, I have faith in my pastor"..

Now it's no secret that I am not religious, in fact, I would venture that organized religion has been the most evil creation that man has EVER devised, and has been responsible for more pain, suffering, and death, then almost everything else combined.

BUT, I also believe in the freedom for people to believe in what they want to. My problem is when people try to distort history for personal reasons.

:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Amen!
What I find really difficult to believe is that people actually do believe that Obama is a Muslim.
Thanks for those quotes, too. I've only seen a couple of them before.

What scares me the most is that guy will probably vote.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by physasst

"well, I don't think that they wrote those, and I stand by what my pastor says"......

---

People will believe what they want to believe. I'm at work (I'll admit it) and we were just talking about a wierd situation and just brushed it off as "the customer is always right". In sales, that's the equivalent of c'est la vie or whatever... :D

He is entitled to a vote. At least he has an opinion (even though it's wrong :) ) and votes accordingly. I get to share an office with someone who won't vote because "they're all liars" yet he still has plenty of uninformed opinions about just short of everything. Come to think of it, maybe the fact that he doesn't vote isn't so bad after all... :ihih:

Interesting quotes physasst. It appears you outmatched your opponent during that debate. It does not require a huge stretch of the imagination to conclude that a majority of our founding fathers would hold religion in the regard that you eluded to.

I'm afraid that the politics over the last 8 years, and more specifically the last 2 presidential elections, and the apparent impotence of democrats despite gaining a mojority in the congress, has left a bad taste in my mouth for politics in general. I find myself alligning with Yeats' logic...."A statesman is an easy man, he tells his lies by rote.
A journalist invents his lies, and rams them down your throat.
So stay at home and drink your beer and let the neighbors vote".

Cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frleal70

Interesting quotes physasst. It appears you outmatched your opponent during that debate. It does not require a huge stretch of the imagination to conclude that a majority of our founding fathers would hold religion in the regard that you eluded to.

I'm afraid that the politics over the last 8 years, and more specifically the last 2 presidential elections, and the apparent impotence of democrats despite gaining a mojority in the congress, has left a bad taste in my mouth for politics in general. I find myself alligning with Yeats' logic...."A statesman is an easy man, he tells his lies by rote.
A journalist invents his lies, and rams them down your throat.
So stay at home and drink your beer and let the neighbors vote".

Cheers

---

Yeah, well, I have been pretty disgusted, as we really don't have two parties anymore......they really are singularly one. Sure, there are small differences, but essentially, they are the same. I am a huge student of colonial history, and have studied our founders/framers rather extensively....I am also a rather STRICT constitutionalist, and believe in absolute separation of church and state.

In essence, I am a proud libertarian. SO, I will be voting for Barr for president....:thumbsup:

"we really don't have two parties anymore......they really are singularly one."

Hmm, I would really like to hear you expand upon this thought.

Rick

Quote:

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"we really don't have two parties anymore......they really are singularly one."

---

Wholeheartedly agree. A two headed monster, if you will.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by physasst

So, I was at work, and was focused on completing my charting when I overheard some techs talking about Obama.....At first I was just listening, and then when one said that "I cain't vote for him, I cain't vote for a mooslim".......I kinda chuckled and kept working on my charts....One of the nurses spoke up and said "You know that he's not a muslim, right?" The tech said, well, everything he's seen says that he's a mooslim, and then he proceeded to say "Every president we've ever had, has been a christian......our founders were all good christians". I sit there for a second, but then, not being able to bite my tongue any longer, I reply, "You do realize that Washington was not a christian, I mean he was born an Episcopalian, but renounced this later, right?"...The guy looks at me, "Well, my pastor says that all of our founders were good christian men".......I say, "Well, I'm sorry to say that your pastor is completely and utterly WRONG on this point." SO, I show him some quotes.....

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...."
-Ben Franklin

“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” Benjamin Franklin Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”

“He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.”

“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.”

“Some volumes against Deism fell into my hands. They were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle’s Lecture. It happened that they produced on me an effect precisely the reverse of what was intended by the writers; for the arguments of the Deists, which were cited in order to be refuted, appealed to me much more forcibly than the refutation itself. In a word, I soon became a thorough Deist.” Benjamin Franklin, from his autobiography


“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” George Washington Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” John Adams

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” John Adams, Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

“But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.” John Adams, letters to family and other leaders 1735-1826

“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.” Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

“In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.”
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” James Madison, April 1, 1774



So I show him these...and unbelievably, he says, "well, I don't think that they wrote those, and I stand by what my pastor says"......

I reply, "Well, they believed in god, just not jesus. They were deists, the closest church in current existence to their belief structure is probably the Unitarian church."

His reply..."Well, I don't believe that, and sorry, but I think you're completely wrong".

I reply, "Of course, you have empiric evidence of my fallacies?"

He's like, "Nope, I have faith in my pastor"..

Now it's no secret that I am not religious, in fact, I would venture that organized religion has been the most evil creation that man has EVER devised, and has been responsible for more pain, suffering, and death, then almost everything else combined.

BUT, I also believe in the freedom for people to believe in what they want to. My problem is when people try to distort history for personal reasons.

:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

---

If it offers any solace, most Christians today aren't terribly Christian.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by physasst

Now it's no secret that I am not religious, in fact, I would venture that organized religion has been the most evil creation that man has EVER devised, and has been responsible for more pain, suffering, and death, then almost everything else combined.

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Actually, man did not devise religion. Jesus brought it to the world with His teachings. Unfortunately, man's evil ways has corrupted it and twisted it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by walterick

"we really don't have two parties anymore......they really are singularly one."

Hmm, I would really like to hear you expand upon this thought.

Rick

---

Try asking someone from one of the European countries other than perhaps the UK... I was in Norway and nobody I talked to was really able to understand the hostility in our political system seeing as the two parties seem almost identical by their standards...somewhat conservative, with a few extremely minor points of contention. Together they fight for ages and ages and get nothing done.

There are many more religions than just <i>Christianity.</i>

And technically, God brought Jesus to the world, and then men created Christianity in an effort to articulate, understand, and proliferate Jesus' teachings. So no, God didn't create Christianity.

"the two parties seem almost identical by their standards...somewhat conservative, with a few extremely minor points of contention."

I am interested in this perspective, and making this point not right at you Harrison but to anyone who wants to respond.

Let's take a look:

<b>The environment</b>
Dems: save it; it is a priority
Pubs: not that important; okay to relax environmental standards

<b>The poor</b>
Dems: help them; it's the system's fault
Pubs: let them help themselves; it's the individual's fault

<b>The economy</b>
Dems: give money to poor people; the rich have enough
Pubs: give money to rich people; the poor would waste it

<b>The budget</b>
Dems: tax and spend; balance the budget
Pubs: cut taxes and spend; ignore the budget

<b>Foreign affairs</b>
Dems: create and support friendships abroad
Pubs: F'em, we're the world's greatest country

<b>Abortion/Roe v Wade</b>
Dems: yes
Pubs: no

<b>Health Care</b>
Dems: make it universal; everyone deserves it
Pubs: keep it private; you don't automatically deserve health care

<b>War in Iraq</b>
Dems: leave
Pubs: stay

even cultural issues like...
<b>Homosexuality</b>
Dems: okay
Pubs: not okay

<b>Evolution</b>
Dems: yes
Pubs: no; get it out of schools

These are some of the major hot-button issues in this country right now and though it's hard to encapsulate an entire party's position on an issue, I don't see how the parties are "the same" on any of these. Polar opposites is more like it.

So again, with examples, please help me see how Democrats and Republicans are the same.

Thanks!
Rick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by walterick

"the two parties seem almost identical by their standards...somewhat conservative, with a few extremely minor points of contention."

I am interested in this perspective, and making this point not right at you Harrison but to anyone who wants to respond.

Let's take a look:

<b>The environment</b>
Dems: save it; it is a priority
Pubs: not that important; okay to relax environmental standards

<b>The poor</b>
Dems: help them; it's the system's fault
Pubs: let them help themselves; it's the individual's fault

<b>The economy</b>
Dems: give money to poor people; the rich have enough
Pubs: give money to rich people; the poor would waste it

<b>The budget</b>
Dems: tax and spend; balance the budget
Pubs: cut taxes and spend; ignore the budget

<b>Foreign affairs</b>
Dems: create and support friendships abroad
Pubs: F'em, we're the world's greatest country

<b>Abortion/Roe v Wade</b>
Dems: yes
Pubs: no

<b>Health Care</b>
Dems: make it universal; everyone deserves it
Pubs: keep it private; you don't automatically deserve health care

<b>War in Iraq</b>
Dems: leave
Pubs: stay

even cultural issues like...
<b>Homosexuality</b>
Dems: okay
Pubs: not okay

<b>Evolution</b>
Dems: yes
Pubs: no; get it out of schools

These are some of the major hot-button issues in this country right now and though it's hard to encapsulate an entire party's position on an issue, I don't see how the parties are "the same" on any of these. Polar opposites is more like it.

So again, with examples, please help me see how Democrats and Republicans are the same.

Thanks!
Rick

---

See, this is my point....Those issues to the vast majority of Americans are important, but nothing is ever really done about them. It's a shell game, biggest one in history I might add. Both major parties are corporate pawns, and are performing the biggest ruse in the history of our country. The media, OWNED by the corporations is playing right into this. Issues that really matter, Crime, education, etc. they are the same. Look at the outcomes that result of their debates. They talk a huge game, but then compromise and mostly pass through bland agendas that benefit corporations. The republicans initiated this, but the democrats have done little but chastise them in public and secretly agree, and then share in the spoils, with them in private. Their cowardice and refusal to act is a betrayal of the american public. Look at the ridiculous compromise on the telecom bill. Another example of Pelosi giving GW a reach around.

The media is not without blame here either. Why is Paul not involved or discussed in any of the debates going forward.....? What about Barr?? (WHOM, I am definitely voting for.)

It's a sham,and the worst part, is we are all to blame. It's our country, and we need to hold our leaders accountable. I think public beheadings of congressional/administration officials who violate the constitution is a good start. Perhaps placing their corpses on spikes down Washington Ave, as a warning to all others who think that they can betray the american populace.

I have a friend who doesn't even like EITHER major party candidate, when I mentioned that I was voting for Barr, he said....."why, you're throwing away your vote"...WTF????? WAKE UP PEOPLE, I merely replied that at least I had the courage to vote with my convictions. If people start demanding more, then, and only then, will change occur, and the hollow empty talk of change so popular with the Obama-ites, but REAL change.

As pertains to Jesus, Well, if there is a Jesus, which I don't believe for a second, then he has a LOT TO answer for....and I for one, will hold him accountable.

:ihih: I think the difference is that the Democrats want to take away our guns and the Republicans want to take away our cameras.! :ihih:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frog

:ihih: I think the difference is that the Democrats want to take away our guns and the Republicans want to take away our cameras.! :ihih:

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And I want to mount a camera on my gun, and a gun on my camera. Long live libertarians :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mn shutterbug

Actually, man did not devise religion. Jesus brought it to the world with His teachings. Unfortunately, man's evil ways has corrupted it and twisted it.

---

Are you completely discounting the Old Testament (Covenant)? Personally, I find the New Testament more compelling, but a lot of it is based on the Old Testament.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by walterick

These are some of the major hot-button issues in this country right now ............

So again, with examples, please help me see how Democrats and Republicans are the same.

Thanks!
Rick

---

Rick, for years now we've had a political system designed such that a candidate can win the popular vote, but lose the nomination/election- thereby usurping the will of the people- and THESE are the major hot-button issues right now???

As defined by whom, I wonder. The two parties in question perhaps?

Here's a radical idea. Take every one of your "hot-button' issues, and put them to a majority vote. No superdelegates, no electorate, just good, old-fashioned will-of-the-people stuff. One person, one vote. Majority rules. Debate over. Move on to something else.

Now take this same concept, and run it by both parties. You'll begin to see the similarities.

- Joe U.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Medley

Rick, for years now we've had a political system designed such that a candidate can win the popular vote, but lose the nomination/election- thereby usurping the will of the people- and THESE are the major hot-button issues right now???

As defined by whom, I wonder. The two parties in question perhaps?

Here's a radical idea. Take every one of your "hot-button' issues, and put them to a majority vote. No superdelegates, no electorate, just good, old-fashioned will-of-the-people stuff. One person, one vote. Majority rules. Debate over. Move on to something else.

Now take this same concept, and run it by both parties. You'll begin to see the similarities.

- Joe U.

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Majority rule without powerful protection of minority rights becomes, "Tyranny of the People." If we had it, it's likely that blacks would be slaves, Jews wouldn't be able to move into Christian neighborhoods, and women wouldn't be allowed to vote. The reason we have big problems with our Republic (it's not a democracy, the Greeks and Romans tried democracy with disastrous results- it almost always devolved into some form of totalitarianism) is we've abandoned one of the key principles- that only the educated be allowed to vote.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by California L33

Majority rule without powerful protection of minority rights becomes, "Tyranny of the People." If we had it, it's likely that blacks would be slaves, Jews wouldn't be able to move into Christian neighborhoods, and women wouldn't be allowed to vote.

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.... which is why we have the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Supreme Court to interpret the issues of the day accordingly. There is still a framework within which we must operate.

- Joe U.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by California L33

The reason we have big problems with our Republic (it's not a democracy, ... is we've abandoned one of the key principles- that only the educated be allowed to vote.

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Of course, that brings up the bigger question of "who is educated"? That's not even close to simple and will vary greatly depending upon who you talk to.

I may be wrong (imagine that!), but I believe the original vote was limited to landowners... based on wealth, not intelligence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by California L33

Are you completely discounting the Old Testament (Covenant)? Personally, I find the New Testament more compelling, but a lot of it is based on the Old Testament.

---

You got me there. I typed before I thunk. :blush2: Thanks for clarifying.

Well, in reading Barr's platform he doesn't really address most of these concerns, he seems focused on:

1) reducing government spending and repealing the IRS
2) limiting the spying and intrusive powers of the federal government
3) closing the borders
4) returning our military to a state of "non-intervention"

With the exception of the border problem, all of Barr's goals are responses to the actions of the Bush administration. I don't know that he has an eye toward addressing crime and education, at least he doesn't mention his stance on these issues on his website. I would be wary of Barr's stance on crime given his opinion that "Big Government... The Root of all Problems." Wouldn't reducing crime mean making government bigger and more intrusive? And what would a libertarian's point of view on education be? Reforming the educational system would again require intrusiveness on the part of the federal government.

But anyway, I was addressing the false notion that the platforms of Democrats and Republicans are the same. You are arguing that despite their platforms, neither actually accomplishes much, and in this they are the same. You blame corporate interests, the media, and "compromise" on the ineffectiveness of politicians. While I would agree that campaign policies need to be changed and corporations need to be kicked out politics, do you really see compromise as a negative political skill? I wonder how anything could get done in politics without it? Unless your political party controls 51-66% of the government, getting bills passed requires compromise!

Thanks for your responses.

"Here's a radical idea. Take every one of your "hot-button' issues, and put them to a majority vote. No superdelegates, no electorate, just good, old-fashioned will-of-the-people stuff. One person, one vote. Majority rules."

Thanks for your response.

Question: How does one put the issue of say "poverty" to a popular vote? What exactly is one voting on?

Or were you referring to the notion that most people would vote that is not a hot button issue, not sure.

Thanks

Walterick et al.

Here's a great thread from one of your sister sites, where we are discussing some of this ad nauseum.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/sho...32859#poststop