The Cold War Resumes, here we go again

[JSPhoto]

With a twist..... China!

Russia resumes the cold war strategic bombing missions Aug. 18th 2007. Thanks to oil profits Russia's Putin ordered strategic bombers to begin regular missions that had ceased following the collapse of the countries economy. And they have added new weapons into the mix that include the SS27 ballistic missile that carries a punch equal to 1 million pounds of TNT and a range of 5000 to 5500 miles. It is capable of evading US Patriot anti-missle batteries. They have also designed new strategic bombers and the new Mig35 and T95 tank.
Add to this though that for the first time ever Russia invited Chinese forces to join them in military manuvers on Russian soil.
Aug. 9 2007 during US exercises off Guam US forces were surprised to see two Russian TU95 bombers appear off Guam. In the mid 90's Russia began updating and upgrading their entire bomber fleet. Needless to say US commanders were caught iff guard having these two show up after years of inactivity. It appears this was the effect Putin wanted to make on US commanders and getting caught with their pants down in that these planes flew from Russia to Guam unspotted.

Just one of hundreds of links to the new Cold War

http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/art...151237,00.html

JS

[Sushigaijin]

That's terrible. Another compelling reason to scrap W's "missile defense" system.

[Canuck935]

Why can't we all just get along?

[SmartWombat]

US commanders would be surprised to see themselves in the mirror in the morning.

[JSPhoto]

It makes the 08 Olympics questionable as well since China has decided to openly join with Russia and actually was permitted by Russia to join manuvers on Russian soil, a first where they invited a foriegn country in to do manuvers. This combines the two largest communist forces into a huge force capable of hitting just about anywhere. China of course is interested in Russias nuclear capabilities both for power and for war.
It seems that aid headed to Russia from the Lugar-Nunn trips was funneled to the Russian air forces to help update thier fleet of aging bombers as well as supporting the design and developement not only new bombers (including stealth) but also other weapons. Great....
Meanwhile Russia is going to the Med and using two Syrian bases for their navy, this makes Isreal nervous.
Fortunately N Korea has been quiet during this...so far, as is Iran, however Iran isn't happy with Russia because of delays in a nuclear reactor that was to go online soon is delayed to late 08. I wonder if this is due to the US and the possibility that the US wuld decide to bomb it before it goes on line as they have in similar incidents in the past.

It's a sad situation for sure.....
JS

[photophorous]

I don't know much about politics and foreign policy. I've only been paying attention for about the last 10 years, which is not long with issues this big. But for some strange reason I've been able to predict lots of things since Bush took over. I won't get into the Iraq mess, but let's just say none of our troubles have been surprising to me. Russia stepping up their defenses is another thing I've been predicting. First, when Bush took office he immediately resumed development of NEW nuclear weapons (some say this is a violation of the nonproliferation treaty), then he resumed development of this missile defense fiasco (which has never actually shot down a missile despite many years of testing), and now he wants to put a missile defense installation in Europe, relatively close to Russia. Hmm...I wonder if this might provoke a response from Russia? It almost seems like Bush perceives a threat that we aren't being told about. But then I just read an interesting article about how the Cheyenne Mountain NORAD command center is being closed, and moved to a new location that isn't protected from nukes like Cheyenne is. So, what the hell is he thinking?! Are we trying to scare Russia into making the same mistakes that ended the Cold War the first time, to keep their economy down? I don't get it. Makes no sense to me.

[masdog]

Depending on which conspiracy site you read, keeping Russia down has been our goal for a long time. I'm not quite sure why we'd want to keep Russia boxed up like we're trying to do.

I highly doubt there will be another war, cold or otherwise. China has too much invested in us. While people like to theorize that China could dump the dollar and destroy our economy, doing so would also tank their economy and the rest of the world. Any war that hurt trade with America and other overseas trading partners would also hurt them just as much as it hurt us.

This is just China playing Asian politics. They're making overt moves to scare us, but they are have too much vested in the United States to lose their trading position.

[masdog]

It makes the 08 Olympics questionable as well since China has decided to openly join with Russia and actually was permitted by Russia to join manuvers on Russian soil, a first where they invited a foriegn country in to do manuvers. This combines the two largest communist forces into a huge force capable of hitting just about anywhere. China of course is interested in Russias nuclear capabilities both for power and for war.

Not quite. I doubt that the Chinese and Russians, even combined, could strike "anywhere." Neither nation has the logistical ability to do so, and neither nation has the sea-lift capacity, or the navy to protect it, to strike far beyond their borders.

Meanwhile Russia is going to the Med and using two Syrian bases for their navy, this makes Isreal nervous.

Only publicly. Privately, and if this is true, Israel is laughing their asses off. The mighty Russian navy is no match for rust, let alone the Israeli Air Force.

Fortunately N Korea has been quiet during this...so far, as is Iran, however Iran isn't happy with Russia because of delays in a nuclear reactor that was to go online soon is delayed to late 08. I wonder if this is due to the US and the possibility that the US wuld decide to bomb it before it goes on line as they have in similar incidents in the past.

If anyone launches a strike against an Iranian nuclear facility, its likely to be Israel with US support. Bush doesn't have the political will to launch air strikes against another nation unless it is a major threat to national security. Iran building a nuclear reactor isn't that sort of threat.

And while we like to portray the Iranians as cracked up religious zealouts, they're not crazy. They know any nuclear strike that could be remotely traced back to them would result in the Great Persian Glass Parking Lot.

[JSPhoto]

Cheyenne Mtn won't close, not sure where you got that info but they can't just move it. They are however upgrading it and sections may move temporarily to Colorado Springs where they do have secure sites.
If you want some interesting reading read about the building of the Cheyenne Mtn. facility, it's online I think, but it's on springs, pretty wild to see.

As far as China, they don't care, they can make just as much money through Russia, Iran and other countries as they can through the US, losing imports to the US would be no big loss.
Russia however blew it, and thats why Bush decided to put a missle defence system in Poland. By the way, the missle defence system, aka the Patriot Missle Defence System has been fixed, and was many years ago (4 or 5) and units in other countries were updated. Anyway, when the US discovered money sent to Russia to clean up or destroy nuclear weapons and facilities was being rerouted to rebuilding and upgrading the Russian bomber fleet, R&D new weapon systems and so forth they called the Russians on it. The President didn't like the response to the billions of dollars they rerouted and felt the safe move was to locate the missle defence system to Poland and guard against a Russian sneak attack.
Since Russia is now self dependant again they have decided to say "screw you" to the US and NATO and pulled out of all treaties. The first sign was the resignation from one treaty in writing, timed with US forces excersing in Guam and two Russian TU95 bombers appearing during the excersie catching the US off guard, although they did launch fighters to intercept the bombers. That was the 9th of August. 9 days later Putin announced that at 00:00:00 August 18th Russian bombers began the flights stopped in 1992 when the economy collapsed, and the Cold War resumed.

masdog wrote:
Not quite. I doubt that the Chinese and Russians, even combined, could strike "anywhere." Neither nation has the logistical ability to do so, and neither nation has the sea-lift capacity, or the navy to protect it, to strike far beyond their borders.

Are you sure about that? Better read up. While Russia spent 1992 to present seemingly doing nothing they were actually working towards the day they would be able to start the cold war again and show thier might. In that time they:
1: rebuilt and upgraded their old fleet of long range bombers - completly
2: designed and built new air launched cruise missles with a range of 5,000 to 5,500 miles and capable of coventional or nuclear warheads. In other words from with in their own borders they can hit anywhere in Europe Asia and parts of the US
3: they now have ports back in Syria for the navy
4: they have a new ICBM that can hit anywhere in the US and it has a conventional wathead equal to 1,000.000 tons of tnt.... that will do serious damage to any city it hits, and it's designed to avoide US Patriot missle batteries (at least the old version)
5: Russian subs have been going through complete refits, and the first new subs will begin launching in 2008.
6: the navy has a large number of vessels being built, including a carrier, a number of cruisers frigates and destroyers as well as large number of patrol boats
7: a pair of new high speed land craft have been going through trials and could begin seeing service in eatly 08. These are hover craft type landing craft and they are planning on large numbers both for their own use and China is also getting them.
8: All active naval vessels have gone through complete refits, including weapons to make it so the old ships and new ones entering service use the same munitions and weapon systems. New ships are being built similar to US vessels but with a twist. They are being built in modular sections and if a ship is damaged they just replace the modular section, and if need be a damaged ship could be used to fix another damaged ship - smart thinking!
9: fighters, all old fighters are presently or have gone through complete refit and electronics overhaul including new air to air radar and new weapons systems. They also have the new MIG 37 that will be entering service this year
20: ground forces, new mobile missle batteries that are much more devastating than those previously used by Russia, Plus add in the the new leader in tanks with the T95, acurate and fast, it can knock out an M1, plus has faster fire rate.
Within 20 years Russia will again have the worlds second largest navy and according to Janes the worlds experts on land air and sea weaponry Russia leads the way

Masdog wrote:
Only publicly. Privately, and if this is true, Israel is laughing their asses off. The mighty Russian navy is no match for rust, let alone the Israeli Air Force

If you believe that you better re-read the above, the Russian navy is no rust bucket, and Isreal is worried about this move.


China:
China has been building their mobile forces, they have much more than you think. They can move 100,000 troops into enemy territory quicker than anyone around them. Their air force has proven they can take it to the US. and the navy has enough ships to do whatever they want offensively ot defensively. The thing with China is they have numbers, in everything, they like Russia have spy satellites and a huge communicatoions network.

Russia and China together would make one nasty adversary for the US, and Russia's asking China to join in excerses on Russian soil goes to show that they know this. Russia has been working with groups in Afghanistan, supplying weapons and tactical assitance.... look at any AP photo of the Talaban with a weapon and you'll see it's a Russian weapon they are carrying. The radios are Russian too.

Now that begs to ask..... is Bin Laden hidding inside Russia? It wouldn't surprise me with recent events.

Anyway, Russia and China are more than capable, and a very serious threat.

[JSPhoto]

US commanders would be surprised to see themselves in the mirror in the morning.

I think US commanders were surprised see the two TU95 bombers show during excersises in Guam, but from then on nothing that occured since has surprised them. They have known for a while Russia was rebuilding their air force, just never expected to see them that far from Russia. That was August 9th. Then things got real bad on the the 18th......

[JSPhoto]

In addition to the below responses check these links out

The first signs of Russia going back to Syrian bases:

http://www.defense-update.com/newsca...sis-231206.htm

Note the rust bucket naval vessel in the photo

The official word on the return from Isreals view:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...434145,00.html

Russia has had this plan in the works for a while, in January 2006 a Russian dredge was noticed credging one of the two bases berths. And although this report states the navy has been going through upgrades for two years it has been going on since 1992, just at a much faster pace the past two years as they have been able to afford more workers and parts the past two years with the jump in oil prices.

So the US 6th Fleet will have it's hands full, as will Isreal

[Sushigaijin]

I highly doubt there will be another war, cold or otherwise. China has too much invested in us. While people like to theorize that China could dump the dollar and destroy our economy, doing so would also tank their economy and the rest of the world. Any war that hurt trade with America and other overseas trading partners would also hurt them just as much as it hurt us.

I'm inclined to agree with this statement. Although disheartening, any recent maneuvers by China and Russia have to be interpreted as "We don't suck anymore, so you can't invade us" rather than "Here we are and we're gunna F you up." I'd probably want to flex a bit of muscle too if another world power started invading sovereign nations in my neck of the woods. We blew up Afghanistan because we didn't like them, we blew up Iraq because we didn't like them. Obviously we invade states that we don't like - what is stopping us from Russia or China? I'd say that we are the pot calling the kettle black on this one, it is classic tit-for-tat arms scaling. We've already exhibited a propensity for knee-jerk invasion, and we are putting missiles in their back yard. I'd be pretty PO'd too. More power to them, I say. At least, until the USA starts playing fair. If we want to proliferate, they should be able to also.

[photophorous]

Cheyenne Mtn won't close, not sure where you got that info but they can't just move it.

Here's the article I read.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070822/..._cheyenne_dc_2

[masdog]

As far as China, they don't care, they can make just as much money through Russia, Iran and other countries as they can through the US, losing imports to the US would be no big loss.

Not quite. The exchange rate from Ruble to Yuan isn't as favorable as Dollar to Yuan. The dollar is worth about 7.57 Yuan today according to Yahoo finance's currency converter. A single Ruble is worth about .29 Yuan. Generally speaking, a manufacturing nation wants to trade with a country that has a stronger currency because it is worth more in their home country.

China:
China has been building their mobile forces, they have much more than you think. They can move 100,000 troops into enemy territory quicker than anyone around them. Their air force has proven they can take it to the US. and the navy has enough ships to do whatever they want offensively ot defensively. The thing with China is they have numbers, in everything, they like Russia have spy satellites and a huge communicatoions network.

Mobile land forces are great for striking at neighboring countries. But they aren't good for being deployed over great distances. As I have stated before, very few nations have the sea-lift capacity to deploy forces far from their own borders and keep them supplied.

Russia and China together would make one nasty adversary for the US, and Russia's asking China to join in excerses on Russian soil goes to show that they know this. Russia has been working with groups in Afghanistan, supplying weapons and tactical assitance.... look at any AP photo of the Talaban with a weapon and you'll see it's a Russian weapon they are carrying. The radios are Russian too.

90% of the world uses Russian-designed or made weaponry. Why? Its cost-effective. You don't get much better bang for the buck. AKs are inexpensive and effective guns that are readily available. And it doesn't help that you can get an armory's worth by bribing a General or two from a Soviet-bloc country.

[JSPhoto]

Not quite. The exchange rate from Ruble to Yuan isn't as favorable as Dollar to Yuan. The dollar is worth about 7.57 Yuan today according to Yahoo finance's currency converter. A single Ruble is worth about .29 Yuan. Generally speaking, a manufacturing nation wants to trade with a country that has a stronger currency because it is worth more in their home country.



Mobile land forces are great for striking at neighboring countries. But they aren't good for being deployed over great distances. As I have stated before, very few nations have the sea-lift capacity to deploy forces far from their own borders and keep them supplied.



90% of the world uses Russian-designed or made weaponry. Why? Its cost-effective. You don't get much better bang for the buck. AKs are inexpensive and effective guns that are readily available. And it doesn't help that you can get an armory's worth by bribing a General or two from a Soviet-bloc country.

Considering any deals by any country will be products and money for weapons, yeah, it's a better deal for China as they are behind in the technology and wanting to upgrade their air and naval forces. Their subs are 1950 and 1960 era Russian rejects that constantly leak.
As for whether or not China or Russia can transport large numbers of troops to foriegn lands, sure they can, well Russia can, they have hundreds of air transports and some of the worlds best trained paratroop forces, not too mention the largest paratroop force. The only problem at this point is the air to air refueling force is unknown.
But then, you don't need too many troops when you can wipe out entire cities with missels that have a 5,000 to 5,500 mile range. A few well placed 1,000,000 ton (equal to TNT) would effectively disable the target country and allow time for the paratroops to move in. Once in place the supplies can be air droppped.
Russia's military has always been dependant on the air transports since the 1950's for everything material wise except the heavy tanks. Even air assets such as small attack helicopters can be transported by air transports.
Russian weapons are not cheap, but they are well made and do the job they are designed to do. The reason Syria is giving Russia acces to the two bases is to help pay down their $70 Billion dollar debt for weapons and so they can buy more weapons. Russia is no longer a place you can just buy weapons from a General on the cheap, those Generals are no longer with the military. Even the former air force is now under command of the army due to former illegal activities.
At present the Russian bomber force is around 300 with that many scheduled for building.
The Navy plans include using commercial ships just as the US does to transport certain military equipment such as tanks to distant batlle fields, similar to the US Military Sealift Command that uses all kinds of commercial ships for military duty transporting everything from oil to tanks and larger helicopters. In addition they have begun the aircraft carrier production that was cancelled in the 90's and when completed will have the same number as the US but the first won't enter service for at least 7 years. One refitted carrier could join the fleet by the end of the year or early 08, it's currently under trials.
Both Russia and China are ordering large numbers of hovercraft type landing craft from a Russian maker as well as patrol boats, some of which will be delivered to the Chinese Navy in time for the Olympics.
One of Isreals concerns is the Russian spy ships, those that are still seaworthy are being refitted with new gear and being prepared for service, one at least going to China and one possibly to Hamas and one to Iran. These ships have extremly sophisticated equipment that can cover any frequency.

Speaking of Hamas, since they took over they have begun their own navy and the IDF has stopped operating off the coast of Lebanon because of fears the Hamas gunboat is no match for their patrol boats. The IDF navy patrol boats do not have much firepower and it's possible a deal is in the works to get a mothballed USN Destroyer to get more firepower. The fear there though is that as soon as Isreal gets it they will go blast Hamas and start further terrorist activity both against Isreal and the US. The French won't help and it's doubtful Britain will. The IDF doesn't have the facilities to build large warships over the size of their present patrol boats.. It would be ironic though if they bought a German destroyer, but highly doubtful.So that leaves Italy....hmmmm. The problem there is much of Italy's weaponry is flaky at best, and not always NATO standard so supply may be an issue.The ships themselves are well designed though.

Oddly enough, through all of this there has been no mention by Russia or anyone about N Korea, so it may be Russia doesn't trust them either.

JS