Nice problem but need Help D3 or D700...

My wife has offered for my 50th in April to buy me a D3. Trouble is I don't know if I should in fact get the D700 and pick up a nice lens with the difference, 14-24mm or the 24-70mm? I'd like to have a 24+mp camera but certainly not for the price that Nikon wants and I don't see myself blowing up a photo over standard wall poster size so I guess the 12mp is still ok for that size? I have a mixture of DX and non-DX lenses with my good lenses all non-DX (by good I mean fast). So what would you do or suggest? Even if my wife buys the D3 I'd still by for myself the lens? Will Nikon bring out a D700x? I'm not in a rush. Thanks

A D700 is basically identical to a D3 in terms of the sensor electronics, and hence, the image quality. The only advantages to a D3 over a D700 are that, without the external battery pack for the D700, the D3 is faster in burst mode, and the D3 is even more heavily ruggedized. But you pay a weight penalty for the beefier battery and more ruggedness in the D3. I would say that for anyone who's not a full time working pro, the D700 is a better choice even if the cost were the same. You might as well put the extra ~ $800-1000 or so into some first rate full frame glass.

As to the question about will Nikon bring out a D700x? Almost certainly, they will, but it won't be for another year or so, and it will probably cost at least $5000 - and by then, a D700 might be as little as $2000. So how patient are you?

And since I turned 49 a couple of months ago, does your wife have any good friends that she wants to fix up? Given that women tend to be very competitive with their female friends.

I would go for the D700 and another good lens. I have the D700 and couldn't be more pleased with. The 14-24 would be an awesome addition for me. But if you don't have a good lens in the 24-70 range than that would be a much more versatile lens in my opinion.

The D700 has the self cleaning sensor and the D3 doesn't, so that'd be my choice. It's a neat thing to use and personally I'd totally prefer it over the D3's speed and heavier build. The D700 with 14-24 is about the same money, but obviously either camera would be a very nice gift.

I have to say a full frame sensor is on by wish list. But given the choice of the D700 or a D3 I would go with the D3. More resolution is more resolution and more quality. Heck you can do massive crops and not lose your print quality for 8 by 10 prints. And you also you get the extra weather proofing.

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Originally Posted by freygr

I have to say a full frame sensor is on by wish list. But given the choice of the D700 or a D3 I would go with the D3. More resolution is more resolution and more quality. Heck you can do massive crops and not lose your print quality for 8 by 10 prints. And you also you get the extra weather proofing.

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Except the D3 has the identical sensor and the identical resolution as the D700. I believe that you're confusing the D3 with the D3x, which costs nearly $4K more.

You already have a D300 and a host of DX and non-DX lenses. I'm in the same situation. My thinking is the following:

Changing the 12Mpix D300 for a 12Mpix D700 or D3 is going to bring me the ability to use 6400 ISO, slightly higher image quality - and if I want to use those (very useful) DX lenses, like the 18-200VR, it will be at only 5Mpix. This is not a good option. I don't need high ISO that often

With the D800 (D3x sensor in D700 body) all those DX lenses will function at 10Mpix, almost like the D300. And I have the option to use my numerous 24x36 film lenses at 24Mpix.

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Originally Posted by Franglais

You already have a D300 and a host of DX and non-DX lenses. I'm in the same situation. My thinking is the following:

Changing the 12Mpix D300 for a 12Mpix D700 or D3 is going to bring me the ability to use 6400 ISO, slightly higher image quality - and if I want to use those (very useful) DX lenses, like the 18-200VR, it will be at only 5Mpix. This is not a good option. I don't need high ISO that often

With the D800 (D3x sensor in D700 body) all those DX lenses will function at 10Mpix, almost like the D300. And I have the option to use my numerous 24x36 film lenses at 24Mpix.

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Now that's what I want, a reasonably priced D800 with 24 Mpix. How long will I have to wait...?

Don't forget, you probably need to upgrade your PC to the tune of $2K to handle the files from a D3x or the hoped for future D800.

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Originally Posted by shootme

Now that's what I want, a reasonably priced D800 with 24 Mpix. How long will I have to wait...?

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I would expect the "D800" to be announced in summer and freely available before Christmas 2009. Don't quote me. This is just a guess.

Well that would work out fine and I can wait a bit longer. I know someone at Nikon in the US so I'll ask if something is brewing for this summer? Let you know what I get back if anything. Cheers S PS: Charles, will be heading to Paris with the wife and kid in coming months any chance to catch-up to say hi and a coffee?

Of course, it's an open question as to whether something between $5000 and $6000 would be a reasonable price. Personally, I don't think you'll see that camera announced until the 4th quarter of 2009, at around $5K.

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Originally Posted by shootme

Well that would work out fine and I can wait a bit longer. I know someone at Nikon in the US so I'll ask if something is brewing for this summer? Let you know what I get back if anything. Cheers S PS: Charles, will be heading to Paris with the wife and kid in coming months any chance to catch-up to say hi and a coffee?

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Let me know when you're coming. I'm mostly available at weekends or after 10pm in the week. I don't live or work in the city. It's very nice where I live but you do have to have a car to get around

Note for Dougigreen: The direct competitors of the "D800" are the Canon 5DMk2 and the Sony A900, both available right now and costing less than $3000. If Nikon are going to produce a new camera - and I don't see any reason why they shouldn't - it would be positioned against these two.

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Originally Posted by Franglais

Let me know when you're coming. I'm mostly available at weekends or after 10pm in the week. I don't live or work in the city. It's very nice where I live but you do have to have a car to get around

Note for Dougigreen: The direct competitors of the "D800" are the Canon 5DMk2 and the Sony A900, both available right now and costing less than $3000. If Nikon are going to produce a new camera - and I don't see any reason why they shouldn't - it would be positioned against these two.

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. And frankly, based upon speed, the high ISO sensitivity and the missing rest of the system, I don't think that the Sony is really a legitimate competitor to the D3x. The Canon, of course, is another story entirely, and Nikon had better deal with it.

In fact, those same two cameras are as much direct competitors for the D3X as they would be the D800. If Nikon does what they did with the D700 vs. the D3, then this new D800 will essentially be the identical camera to the D3x, but slightly less ruggedly built and with a smaller battery pack. I can't imagine them going from $8000 to below $4000 or less just by replacing some of the metal in the body with plastic and downsizing the battery. The D700 came out as a 35% price reduction off of the D3 intro price. I would expect that the D800 or whatever it's called will also be about a 35% price reduction off of the D3x. Which would put it at $5200 - or, more likely $4999 when it hits, which would be an effective 38% price cut.

For now, Nikon clearly believes that their Canon Competitor is not the 5D Mk2, but the 1Ds Mk III. They may be wrong, and you may be right. But right now, Nikon has priced their D3x well above the competition. It remains to be seen if they need to correct that market pricing reality.

My view of the market is entirely driven by what the competition are up to. Which gives us four segments:

1. Studio (7K$ upwards) = the medium format machines like the Hasselblad are dominant (price = 17-36K$) but Canon and now Nikon are eating away at the bottom end with cameras that are more versatile

2. Sports & heavy Reportage (4-5K$) = Nikon D3 & Canon 1DMk3

3. Wedding, lower end pro, 2nd body (2.5-3K$) = Canon 5D Mk2, Nikon D700 and Sony A900 trying to break into the market

4. APS-C sensor (less than 2K$)

I would put the "D800" in category 3 next to the 5DMk2 and if I was Nikon I would do it sooner rather than later

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Originally Posted by Franglais

My view of the market is entirely driven by what the competition are up to. Which gives us four segments:

1. Studio (7K$ upwards) = the medium format machines like the Hasselblad are dominant (price = 17-36K$) but Canon and now Nikon are eating away at the bottom end with cameras that are more versatile

2. Sports & heavy Reportage (4-5K$) = Nikon D3 & Canon 1DMk3

3. Wedding, lower end pro, 2nd body (2.5-3K$) = Canon 5D Mk2, Nikon D700 and Sony A900 trying to break into the market

4. APS-C sensor (less than 2K$)

I would put the "D800" in category 3 next to the 5DMk2 and if I was Nikon I would do it sooner rather than later

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Except that Nikon would claim that, unlike the competitors you cited, their future D800 (if it really IS nearly identical to the current D3x in a smaller body) can comfortably play credibly into segments 1 and 2, and thus, is priced accordingly. BTW, that sports/reportage segment is skewed, because APS-sensor bodies can actually play just fine there if they are solid enough. More than a few pros use Canon 50D and Nikon D300 bodies and play in that space. Arguably, ASP-sensor bodies have an advantage in Segment 2 due to the telephoto multiplier.

You didn't say which segment that you feel a Nikon D3x plays in, although you implied that it's the lower tier of Segment 1. I would contend that the D800, since it will almost surely be the same camera in a less ruggedized, smaller package, will play in that segment as well.

I'm learning a bunch here I must say. All I hope for is that the D800 if it comes this summer is recognized by the professionals as a great camera, hence shows up for use in categories 1 or 2, but priced for the non-professional but serious photographer like me in category 3. Here's hoping. Cheers S.

Professionals use whatever it takes to get the job done. I have seen the local newspaper photographer covering an event with an "amateur" Coolpix point-and-shoot. He only has to fill a postcard-size piece of newsprint so why do more. Plus the point-and-shoot can do video for the web site.

Lets keep out fingers crossed. I'm quite happy with my APS-C D300 anyway. As a humble amateur, I find that $3000 is too much to spend on a camera.

Charles, you make a good point, but I'm trying to think more pragmatically about it. I just have to think about my investments and the turbulance in economies and of course the bigger picture, +5 year time horizon (I bought my F4 in 1989 and only upgraded to a digital D300 last year, the F4 takes a brilliant photo). I could as easily lose 3k on an investment which could have been spent on a tangible asset from which I/we get enjoyment. Does that make sense? I guess I'm still trying to convince myself whether to spend as it is a bunch of green even though it's not coming out of my pocket. That said I wouldn't pay the premium for the D3x, value price ratio just doesn't seem right.

OK, here's the latest. As much as I was convinced to get the D700 I ended up with my wife buying me the D3. We saw it in a shop while visiting family in Switzerland at a 15% discount and were able to get it tax free so under US 4k, I couldn't pass it up it was meant to be and it is a really great camera. I love shooting without use of flash so it's low light capabilities are brilliant. I picked up for a great price as well the 24-70mm f2.8. I am very happy with the purchase. One of my first shots with it is posted in the March project forum, a head shot of a street busker. Shootme.

Congrats on the new purchase that is one awesome pair you got. I'm looking forward to seeing lots of images from you in the weeks to come.

Saw the shot and looks like you're making good use of the purchase.
I'll be looking for more from it and you.
Congratulation!

Congratulations on the new camera! My suggestion to you would be to start saving for the up coming shoulder or neck operation from carrying it around. You can also stop that monthly gym fee and put in the saving account. Good luck with your new camera, Jeff