The Ultimate C-Print.

[fx101]

It seems like the right forum to post, as many film shooters are wondering the same and the process is film related.

Basically what I'm wondering is price aside, how can I get the best possible 30x20 print in terms of vivid colour, wide gamut, contrast, etc. My source is a stitched panorama of 12 10 megapixel images (118 megapixel image) sampled at 300dpi.

Currently the norm for printing appears to be Fuji Crystal Archive, with the Supergloss (a.k.a fujiflex) being the most highly touted version.

I have had a few cibachrome prints in the past and have been boggle eyed because of the incredible quality and depth these prints have-- I'm not sure this will be good from digital (or even scanned slides).
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I've talked to a few labs that do c-prints (West Coast Imaging and Calypso) and WCI told me that prints using the LED Chromira enlarger will rival those printed on a Cibachrome and have the benefit of predictable results (vs. Chromira which has unexpected colour characteristics) and significantly lower cost. There is only one lab that I know of that will expose Cibachrome (Ilford Classic as it's now called) on a digital enlarger (a Lambda Durst). It would run $240 vs. $100 for a professionally set up print at WCI. The lab that does the Ciba is Elevator Digital. My question is, which way will get me the best print? Also, is it worth $120 to get the Ciba paper which is slightly more glorious than the Fujiflex? I plan to get the image face-mounted on plexiglass and backed with an aluminum plate with the edges of the photo wrapped around: this is a style used in many contemporary galleries. I'm just wondering if anybody has extensive or any experience in these things?

[drg]

If you want the color specs you mentioned, the modern Inkjets from Epson and Canon (the big drum plotter types) with Archival inks are the way to go. The gamut is wider, the control is exacting (on a well set up machine, but that's true of digital enlargers as well).

At this size the quality of the digital file is only part of the equation with something like Digital Enlargers. I want to see what someone is doing 'regularly' with Ciba anymore to know if they can put out a good products. And the prices you are quoting are high for just a 20x30 image.

Inkjet work should be priced by the Area (square feet) of work. The exception being that if you are having dozens (or more) 8x(10 0r 12) run off, they may give you an item quote which includes cutting.

The 'best' probably is a Lightjet print on one of the photographic process papers like RA (Fuji Crystal Archive as an inexpensive example) for repeatability and color accuracy.

If there's a local (50-75 miles even) professional shop, check out using them as you can go hang over their shoulder and actually see what you will get. You may learn enough with one trip to be able to ship everything digitally and have good results by 'remote'. Other wise, trial and error at this size gets costly, quickly! Even with gas at $5 a gallon it will probably be worth while in the long run!

Best wishes and let me know if I can answer (or try) anything else.

[fx101]

I've been doing some searching around and it appears people are split 50/50 over whether Lightjet or Chromira printing (either from slides or digital files) onto RA4 Paper (like the supergloss Fuji Crystal) actually shows differences between both machines. Some people claim that the Lightjet provides much more detail and more "masked" like colour whilst the Chromira provides an inkjet-like gamut but on photographic paper. I do not wish to get giclée (inkjet) prints because due to the nature of the plexiglass face-mount and the image (which involves mixes of deep luscious greens of trees and deep penetrating sunset orange on rocks). It's thus imperative that the dye/ink lie below the emulsion so as to give depth and vivid colour when mounted. There's a process where giclée prints are laminated with a mirror-like cibachromesque surface. This would then give the superglossy emulsion-like surface that plexi-mounting calls for. The issue with this is I'm not sure about the archival qualities of laminating (heat is involved) and I have a feeling two laminates (plexiglass sort of counts as one) might make the picture cloudy. As for the digital cibachrome print I'm not sure if it's worth it. It's exposed on an older lambda durst, which, people have said provides a far less vivid image than the newer laser and LED based enlargers. Thus the paper benefits might not justify the higher price and lower quality of the image itself.

Let's say I do choose to go with the fujiflex (fuji crystal supergloss) RA4 process. Then what labs might do the best job at working with me to get the print right? There's a few that just print a profiled image but I want some interaction with the printer to get it just right: this image will be selling for $700-800 mounted so I'm expecting top notch exhibition quality printing. My local labs are not "professional" enough to carry either a lightjet or a chromira so that isn't going to help (and to think Kodak is based up here...). I'll be sure to get proofs obviously.

[drg]

fx101,

The idea behind a profiled image is to provide you with the information you need to get the kind of output you desire. Thus the comment, about hanging over the shoulder to understand what they are doing.

A properly profiled monitor and software setup will allow you to work "remotely" and achieve consistent results.

The Lightjet system is going to give you the best Continuous Tone (c-print) output! The inkjet and chromic ink systems and their 'digital' emulations are modeled after offset printing. The RIP (raster image processing) engine/software takes care of what was once an arduous task of separation and masking. However, it still print multiple dots(simulating or creating a half-tone) to make up the image.

Lightjet (via a laser) just produce the colored dot needed at a particular point. Result is a cleaner and better print probably 99.99% of the time. Different costs, less paper selection (C-tone limited) than inkjets which you can print on about anything.

If you haven't found this:

http://www.lightjetsplus.com/

you might use this at least for comparison.

Have you read the PDF and seen this set of data?

http://www.cymbolic.com/products/lightjet5000.html

Just exactly what area are you looking for a shop to be located? There are commercial printers in virtually every college town, and communities of 200K+ are going to have one close by.

Now if you've found a supplier who will do all the dirty work including mounting that you can deal with their costs, then ship a file for a few test prints (they can cropped, but at the same resolution) in smaller sizes or whatever you want to test with. I'll write up a test file proposal type doc if you need it. I'm kind of working on a series of print related posts anyway.

Best wishes and be patient.

[fx101]

Well I decided to do the following...
The gallery where I will be selling my prints decided it would be best to get proofs from the different labs and pick what was best (and they agreed to pay for it! ). Basically I ended up deciding to get West Coast Images to do a Chromira C-tone print on Fuji Crystal Archive Supergloss (and a silver rag paper for a B+W image I plan to have printed as well). Then I had my local lab do an inkjet proof on three different papers (one optimised for the B+W). Lastly, Elevator Digital in Torronto agreed to give me a proof on Cibachrome (Ilford Classic) printed on a Lambda Durst and a B+W proof on actual Silver fibre paper. All of the proofs are actually 8x10 sizes as right now what matters is picking the printer rather than getting the print just right. I'm starting to rethink my earlier perspective on inkjets because for B+W prints the detail and rich blacks are impeccable (probably even better than real silver gelatin). I'll post back when I get my 8x10's back and I converse with the gallery to see what works out.

[fx101]

It's been a while, but I should really post my experiences.

West Coast Images:
I sent them an 8x10 to drum scan at 5000 dpi (yes it was a gigantic file) which I then edited and had printed on to Fuji Supergloss on a chromira, and a stitched digital panorama (equals approx 117 MP) on the same paper. WOW!! The colour gamut, is 90% of what cibachrome used to deliver. The surface is hard to describe if you're not familiar with ciba-- it's like glass unlike other glossy surfaces that reflect a lot and add nothing to the image. The colours shine through to create metallic-like depth. The blacks were deep... not incredibly deep, but had very precise gradients (no banding). Remember these were 8x10's.

Local Lab's Epson 9800 with K3 inks. They printed on epson papers for the colour proofs and Crane Museo Siver Rag for the B+W proof. The colour prints were very sharp but suffered from bronzing slightly and didn't have the same colour pop of the c-tone competitor. The B+W print though.... WOW . That has to be the closest thing to silver-gelatin or platinum toning I have ever seen on an digital-source print. It has a nice warmth to the highlights and shadows that immediately captivates you and complements the subject matter (which includes people). The surface is not matte, but smooth and not shiny.

Elevator Digital:
I got these last, they were expensive as hell (did I mention wildly expensive? ) and honestly I didn't really expect much considering I had already been wowed by the other proofs. Well... I opened up the packaging to my colour proofs, which were printed on Cibachrome using a Lamda Durst, and I nearly fell backward. The look is actually BETTER than when I had Ciba's made from film in the past. The luscious greens are very saturated and metallic-like, the polarised sky radiates in a way that would make even velvia sourced prints jealous and the surface has a crystal sheen (although I have to admit Fuji Supergloss' might actually be better in this category) that gives enormous 3d depth to the image. The gallery immediately decided that would be the best option for my colour prints. If I was to print them for home use, the Fuji Supergloss produces prints very close to Cibachrome quality that will almost anything for a modest price. Finally I opened up the fiber based proofs (B+W prints) and I was not specifically impressed. It looks like just about any silver gelatin print you see in a museum; however, when compared to the vivid contrast and sharp depth of the inkjet I have to say that the old method might have actually been trumped by new technology.

My conclusions? You want nice fine art prints for home? Get a good drum scan of your slides/negatives (for enlargements film cannot be beat), do your darkroom magic in photoshop, and get it exposed via a chromira onto fuji crystal Supergloss for something around $20-25 for a 30x20... a bargain compared to traditional processing. If price is no matter go get a Ciba made in torronto and I doubt you'll get a better print anywhere in the world. For B+W, again get it scanned and print it on an inkjet. The fusion of analog film and digital printing/editing techniques has led to some remarkable results.