Need help picking a film, yes FILM, camera

[Xia_Ke]

Okay, now you are going to laugh at me but, I guess this is a sign of the times, I have NEVER owned a film camera I've been using digitals since the first Kodak DC's hit the market. My dad had an Olympus P&S film camera I used a couple times as a kid but, other than that, no film experience.

So anyway, I signed up for a film photography class. I would really like to get an older manual camera. Something that will really make me think about the shot I'm about to take. My question is this, I have a Nikon set-up right now, so what older Nikon would you guys recommend? I've been looking at the FM's. I'd like an F series but, that's out of my price range right now. Another thing I was considering, since I've always been intrigued by it, is medium format. I thought about picking up an older Mamiya M645 or Bronica ETR instead of going the 35mm route. For the class, I can go either way.

Where do you guys think would be a good place to start? As always, thanks for the help

[freygr]

Check on ebay. But anything larger than 120 would be very costly to shoot color. I my self would consider a 35mm film camera, either a range finder LEICA (clone) from post WWII. Lenses can be purchased but the beater lenses can be purchase reasonably, or one of the many Nikon, Canon, Pentax, etc SLR. I my self would check your local shops after looking on ebay and deciding the type of camera.

Another cheap why of purchasing a camera is to go to estate sales. I have a press camera with a filmpack adapter and it would work for a film photography class but the schools darkroom may not have the tanks and film hangers.

[Xia_Ke]

Thanks freygr If I take the 35mm route, I think I'm going to stick with Nikon as I already have a couple older lenses. I've found a couple good deals on a FM w/ 50mm f/1.8 Ais lens. They don't want us getting into large format yet. Only medium or 35mm for now. I did find a mint condition Mamiya M645 w/ wlf and 80mm f/2.8 in mint condition, with a 6 month warranty, for $219 that I'm considering.

[another view]

Nikon FM's are great cameras, just check it out to make sure everything works properly. I haven't checked the prices on them lately, but if you can get an FM2 or FM2n for a little more I'd go that route. The FM series is fully manual; no auto mode. The FM2n says FM2 on the front of it but the serial number will start with an "N" and it will have a 1/250 flash sync speed. That's the one to get if you have the choice.

With medium format, check around to see where you can get the film processed first. I usually bought the film itself online but a couple local places also had it (much more expensive). There were a couple of local labs that processed it, but I know one of them is no longer in business. For me, having a local processor was important. Call me paranoid, but I was never a fan of sending my film out for processing. Sure, a lab can screw it up but at least I know it's not sitting on a truck for a couple days baking in the sun before it gets there...

[Xia_Ke]

Thank av I'll take a look at the 2 & 2n and see what kind of prices I can find. As for processing, we will be doing our own film processing as part of the class. There's also going to be an "introduction to print making" which I'm really excited for

[mamajan]

You might also consider a twin lens reflex camera. I have a Mamiya C220. It takes beautiful pictures and they are not nearly as pricey as the 645. It is a 120 format so you get a nice big negative or slide.

[Orgnoi1]

Personally if you have the choice and the processing location is available to you I would choose the medium format route... for me it was a no brainer... while film is *supposed* to be approximately 25mp for a 35mm slide I dont really see any difference between my 5D and my 1N if I have it professionally scanned... actually aside from some slightly deeper colors the 5D wins out... but it will be a cold day in hell before they pry my 2 Mamiya 645's out of my hands... I currently shoot a 645AF (the first version) and a 645TL Pro... both of which give you STELLAR negatives (as long as you can shoot...LOL)... just plan that if you are going to scan these in that you have a BIG backup hard drive... as each scan of a color 120 film neg at 3200dpi is about 120mb...LOL

Since I shoot mainly railroads I cant get you a lot of examples outside that world... but here is two pages from my personal RR site shot with MF film...

http://nerrphoto.fotopic.net/c1238478.html <==2007 images

http://nerrphoto.fotopic.net/c1159985.html <==2006 images

[mongoose]

Get an F3HP, mmmmmm I love my F3. I kind of want to sell it when I get my digital, but I kind of don't. Too many good memories with that camera..

[Xia_Ke]

Thank you very much for the input guys I actually ended up getting a really good deal on a Nikkormat EL for, I'll be starting with 35mm. Still keeping an eye out for good medium format deals but, may be a bit before that comes together. Mamajan, I've been looking at TLR's mainly lately. Seems to be some very good deals on the old Mamiya C series and also been looking at a couple different Yashicas. Once I get everything together for being able to process film, then I will start looking more seriously at MF.

Thanks Again,
Aaron

BTW- Ross, beautiful shots in your gallery. Do you mind if I ask what you are using for your B&W film?

[Orgnoi1]

BTW- Ross, beautiful shots in your gallery. Do you mind if I ask what you are using for your B&W film?

I use primarily Ilford Delta Pro series for film... I try and never shoot color in film actually... call it a strange personal preference...

For all the B&W night shots they were taken with either Delta Pro 100 or FP4 125 pulled to ISO80 for contrast...

The color shots are actually from the film that came with my 645AF when I bought it off a fellow photog (my other admin on my site)... he had bought it and never used it, so the film was older and I kept it fridged till I had the chance to shoot...

You can never go wrong with the Ilford stuff though...

Actually now that I think about it I have one gallery on my other page that has 35mm Ilford ISO3200 shots on it... right here:
http://trjphotography-rossm.fotopic.net/c1176353.html

[Xia_Ke]

Wow, love the dark contrasting in those shots. I'd ask you to explain pulling but, we'll take this film processing thing for step at a time...LOL I do have one stupid question though, other than C-41 process B&W film, do all B&W films use the same chemicals for development? Basically after I buy stuff for the Kodak film I have, can I then get some Ilford film and use the same chemicals? Thanks again for the help

[Orgnoi1]

Wow, love the dark contrasting in those shots. I'd ask you to explain pulling but, we'll take this film processing thing for step at a time...LOL I do have one stupid question though, other than C-41 process B&W film, do all B&W films use the same chemicals for development? Basically after I buy stuff for the Kodak film I have, can I then get some Ilford film and use the same chemicals? Thanks again for the help

I wish I could answer you on that... I havent developed my own since highschool (a long ways back...LOL) and currently go to a local developing place thats stellar... they also do mail order and are extremely fast....you can check them out here:

http://www.mcgreevyprolab.com/

They do an incredible and reliable service... everything is done inhouse... and they can print huge...

[Xia_Ke]

I had actually looked around at different labs for processing film. They came up under one search I did. Another I looked at was San Miguel Photo Lab. For me though, half the reason for wanting to go to film would be to get hands on with it even though right now I'm scared s#&$less at the thought of doing so...LOL

[Orgnoi1]

For me though, half the reason for wanting to go to film would be to get hands on with it even though right now I'm scared s#&$less at the thought of doing so...LOL

Naw dont be too worried about it... of course start with film you dont mind wasting and work from there... I remember it not being terrible in school doing dip-n-dunk black and white... in fact that was the only class in HS I got a 100% passing grade on

[Xia_Ke]

I wish now that I would have taken it in high school. I've always been into art though for some reason never was much into photography. I found that through the various artistic medias I have done in the past though that while I enjoyed them, they just never really were completely fulfilling to me and I felt I could never fully express myself with them. The past couple years I've barely done anything at all with art. Having "discovered" photography this Winter has been a breath of fresh air and completely re-energized me artistically. My camera goes with me everywhere now. Luckily I have a cool boss too so I get to play a lot at work while it's quiet.

[Greg McCary]

To be honest learning exposure may be faster on a DSLR since the results are instant. As long as you stay in manual. With film you can miss exposure some and the lab will pull it out for you. So you may never know. And it works both ways. You may nail it and the lab screw you up. It's happened to me. I think that developing your own film would be a great learning experiance. Something I want to do if I ever get the time.

[Xia_Ke]

Thanks for your input Greg I've been using manual mode on my camera pretty much since I got it, except for just a couple times. Just changed my metering over from Matrix to Centerweighted as well, hoping to get a better feel for what the Nikkormat will do. I just realized one thing that is going to suck though. I don't have a scanner to post my results when I start getting film processed

[Orgnoi1]

I don't have a scanner to post my results when I start getting film processed

Try the Canon CanoScan 8400F or its new version equivelent... inexpensive... and works great!

[freygr]

Wow, love the dark contrasting in those shots. I'd ask you to explain pulling but, we'll take this film processing thing for step at a time...LOL I do have one stupid question though, other than C-41 process B&W film, do all B&W films use the same chemicals for development? Basically after I buy stuff for the Kodak film I have, can I then get some Ilford film and use the same chemicals? Thanks again for the help

C-41 process is a color film process and the B&W film is designed to be processed in the film processor so the one hour mini labs can process B&W film. C-41 process leave NO silver in the film, its recovered and sent back to be reused. The standard B&W film the silver participle's are the black you see in the negatives. C-41 process and all color film use dyes, and that is why standard B&W film lasts as long as the paper or film base.

[photophorous]

Wow, love the dark contrasting in those shots. I'd ask you to explain pulling but, we'll take this film processing thing for step at a time...LOL I do have one stupid question though, other than C-41 process B&W film, do all B&W films use the same chemicals for development? Basically after I buy stuff for the Kodak film I have, can I then get some Ilford film and use the same chemicals? Thanks again for the help

Short answer is Yes, you can use the same chemicals as long as its not C-41 B&W film. But, B&W film is very different than color because of the control you have over the look of the image. You can control it by changing the time, temperature, or dilution of developer, as well as the kind of developer, the agitation methods, and of course, the way you expose the film. If you really get into B&W film, you will probably end up with favorite developers for different kinds of film. It's all a very personal choice and there is generally no right or wrong way to combine these things. You'll just have to start with the basics and gradually develop (no pun intended) your own preferences.

When I first got interested in really learning photography, I came to this site seeking advice. Several people told me the B&W darkroom was a great place to start, so that's what I did. I couldn't be happier with that choice. I think you've made a good decision to get an older manual camera and learn about film. Even if you don't stick with it for very long, it will help your understanding of photography with any camera you use in the future. I have to admit, after about 9 months of darkroom expenses building up, I broke down and bought a D70s. I used it as my main camera for about 9 months, and the freedom it gave me to experiment really helped me continue to learn. But now, I'm back to film. I just prefer the look, and the slow methodical experience of using a manual camera. I'm waiting for digital to improve before I jump back in the obsolescence race. Again, that's just a personal choice.

Good luck, and enjoy!

Paul

[Xia_Ke]

Thank you very much guys for the input. I think I'll just set aside the color film for processing until I get a little experienced and comfortable with b&w. Then I'm sure I'll be back with plenty more questions...LOL

[another view]

I think I'll just set aside the color film for processing until I get a little experienced and comfortable with b&w.

FWIW, I know two people who did a fair amount of their own color processing years ago. They don't do it anymore, mainly because they have had problems buying the chemistry in small quantities. It's still readily available in bulk quantities for professional labs, but that's way more stuff than an individual could possibly use.

Personally, as much as I love "real" b&w film I'll probably stick with digital for color. Slides are amazing to look at on a light table but one of the main things getting me into digital was inconsistent quality from the labs...

Oh, and cameras? I used to have a Nikon F5 and loved it. I'll see where this b&w thing goes for me but I see now I can buy a used one in the $4-450 range. That's even less than the bargain $700 I paid for mine, and then sold it a year later for the same money. They were about two grand new!

[Xia_Ke]

The F5 looks to be a nice camera. Bit overkill for what I want/need...at least for now. Personally I'd like an FM2n or maybe a F3HP for 35mm. However, once I get used to film, I'd really like to move on to 6x6 or 6x7 MF. That's a ways down the line at this point though. One step at a time... one step at a time...LOL

[another view]

Oh yeah - medium format. Hasselblads still seem to be pretty expensive but there are a lot of other good choices. I had a Bronica SQ-A system for a while (cheap a few years ago and even moreso now), and it's basically a copy of a Hasselblad - 6x6 SLR, pretty compact and a lot of available lenses and accessories. It was fun but unless you have a square print you'll crop down to about 645 anyway.

Then there's 6x7 - like the Mamiya RB67 series. These things are about the size of a football and weigh a ton, but that extra 1cm of film potentially gives you a lot more neg for making a rectangular print. These cameras are pretty old but are fully mechanical and should last a long time. And if you're going to all the trouble to develop your own film, you might as well have a big negative to work with. But, that takes a different scanner or a bigger enlarger...

[Xia_Ke]

(In best Homer voice) "Mmmmm, Hasselblad"...LOL

That would be my ultimate right now. Either a 500c or 500c/m. Realistically, it'll probably end up being a Bronica S2/S2a, Mamiya RB67, or a Mamiya TLR.

Who knows though. We'll see how things go. I haven't even processed a single roll yet. I could end deciding film just isn't for me...LOL