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  1. #26
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnzora
    Ok so you're saying that if I buy the d90 or the 50d... since they aren't full-frame cameras... I need to stick with the EF lenses because those are the ones that will fit on the MIII or Dx later on. So for the portraits, modeling and acting portfolio, etc.. I should be cool with owning a 50mm and 28-75 for now?
    I'm really not saying that. It's all a trade-off of investment now, vs investment later. One thing that is clear is that there are more cheapo poor quality lenses made for small sensors than for full frame sensors.

    I'm frankly not a big fan of a 28-75mm lens being the only zoom you get, because it's not wide enough at the bottom end to cover all the wide needs you may have when used on a small sensor body. I think you'll find that for weddings, you will wish you had something wider.

    Frankly, you need to start putting your hands on some gear, and see how it feels in your hands, and what the field of view of various lenses looks like through the viewfinder. There's not much more you'll get from forums, other than opinions from folks who's needs and views may be different from your own.

  2. #27
    Senior Member Anbesol's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    If you won't say it I will. Stick with full frame, two reasons - full frame is the future, moreover, even if you stuck with APS forever, they give you a greater sweet spot. Problems of the lens are far greater from the outer ends of the elements, the APS only uses the center. the only thing you really miss with full frame lens is a bit on the wide end (10-24mm). I've shot with some wide DX ED lens before and the difference is substantial and for me, instantly noticable, flare, distortion, aberration, of course vignetting. DX lens are the Nikon version of EF-S. Most sony's are full frame coverage as well (sans a few ultra-wides and cheap-o's).

    Doug has a point about the 28 as a weak wide, *particularly if you go with Canon* (which has a 1.6x crop factor instead of 1.5, a difference significant at 20-28mm). Personally I use something wider then 30mm on my APS *very* rarely, but it is obnoxious to not have it be there when you need it. 42mm field of view (equiv) can take care of a lot of wide situations given the right amount of distance, still - the 24-70mm f2.8 Sigma may be another one worth looking at, I'd say the 4 on the wide is much more valuable than the 4 on the end, keep your f-stops the same, damned similar performance.

  3. #28
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Quote Originally Posted by Anbesol
    If you won't say it I will. Stick with full frame, two reasons - full frame is the future, moreover, even if you stuck with APS forever, they give you a greater sweet spot. Problems of the lens are far greater from the outer ends of the elements, the APS only uses the center. the only thing you really miss with full frame lens is a bit on the wide end (10-24mm). I've shot with some wide DX ED lens before and the difference is substantial and for me, instantly noticable, flare, distortion, aberration, of course vignetting. DX lens are the Nikon version of EF-S. Most sony's are full frame coverage as well (sans a few ultra-wides and cheap-o's).

    Doug has a point about the 28 as a weak wide, *particularly if you go with Canon* (which has a 1.6x crop factor instead of 1.5, a difference significant at 20-28mm). Personally I use something wider then 30mm on my APS *very* rarely, but it is obnoxious to not have it be there when you need it. 42mm field of view (equiv) can take care of a lot of wide situations given the right amount of distance, still - the 24-70mm f2.8 Sigma may be another one worth looking at, I'd say the 4 on the wide is much more valuable than the 4 on the end, keep your f-stops the same, damned similar performance.
    FYI, I definitely don't buy Full Frame being the future. IMHO both sensor sizes are the future for pros. Full frame will be at most 30-50%of the pro market, and 5% of the hobbyist market. APS will always be over half of the pro market, and well over 90% of the hobbyist market. Which isn't to say that Full Frame is not ultimately higher quality. But you will need to pay big bucks for it.

    In 2010, $3K will buy a lot more quality in APS size camera + lenses than it will in Full Frame. In 2010, you will need to spend at least $1000 more for a comparable full frame body as an APS body, and figure on at least $400 more per equivalent speed lens which can support the full frame sensors with quality. Unless your budget for camera and lenses in 2010 is at least $5K, you will get better quality in an APS size camera and lenses that support it well. You could spend the ~ $400 more on lenses now, and preserve the investment, or not, it's up to you. But in the digital world, when an investment is deferred, the cost definitely declines over time.

  4. #29
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    I agree 100% with Doug...full frame has a future, but it isn't the future...absolute image quality is a pretty small fraction of photography.

    The top of the line crop cameras are really, really, really nice cameras and there is no reason why crop sensors won't continue to improve in quality with technological advances. Sure full frame may always have an absolute rendering advantage, but most people - even publishers and clients - aren't going to notice or care.

    I'd buy lenses that you need now, not lenses that you may need one day later down the line. Besides, a lot of the old film lenses are pushed pretty hard by the new digital sensors - full frame manufacturers are going to have to redesign a lot of full frame lenses in order to keep up with extremely resolution-hungry sensors...Why buy twice?

    You need FAST and high quality lenses. Zooms that cover about 28-100mm, 100-200, and a nifty 50 (50mm f/1.8, because it's awesome and dirt cheap). Those are 35mm equivalents. I know a wedding photographer who has a full frame 5d, a 28 prime and a 50 prime, and shoots EVERYTHING with them. His only flash is a ring flash from his glamour/fashion magazine days. In short, you'll be a step ahead as far as gear but a few years in the trenches is more important than fancy kit...
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  5. #30
    Senior Member Anbesol's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Micro processor technology keeps getting smaller, and smaller, and smaller. Of course full frame cameras will, in the future, be built at much lower prices, and much lower sizes. The large requirement being only the pentaprism really, all other pieces of technology can be reduced in size. I dont expect full frame to be the future in 5 years, but in the next decades, I am willing to bet that full frame technology will outdate APS sensors.

    In 2010, $3K will buy a lot more quality in APS size camera + lenses than it will in Full Frame
    Yes, 2010 is 1 year. A change that big couldn't possibly transition that quick, even if instantly recognizable. I was saying 'the future' in the grander sense of things. Keeping in mind that lens are built to last decades.

    Yes there is plenty of quality in APS but I think in 10 years full frame technology will be so comparably priced that the cost-benefit of manufacturing APS sensors will be obsolete.

    Point remains though, the significantly improved sweet spot makes full frame lens the way to go, I still don't ever think that buying APS-lens is a good idea unless starting at 10-20mm.

  6. #31
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Quote Originally Posted by Anbesol
    Yes there is plenty of quality in APS but I think in 10 years full frame technology will be so comparably priced that the cost-benefit of manufacturing APS sensors will be obsolete.
    That's simply not true - It's never going to happen. The cost of a full frame sensor alone DWARFS the other electronics in a DSLR - and full frame sensors are very process limited. Unlike everything else in a DSLR, the sensors can't really come down in cost (although they CAN move up the performance/feature curve without going UP in cost). The fact is, excluding the sensor, the cost of parts for a D700 is, at most $50 more than that on a D300. The difference between an 5D Mk II and and a 50D is similar.

    So, other than the sensor itself, the parts cost of full frame only makes up around $2-300 of the difference in selling price of these full frame. A full frame Sensor costs around $300 or more, while a leading edge APS sensor costs well under $100 in volume. Move ahead 10 years, and an APS sensor might cost $25-40, but a full frame sensor is STILL going to cost around $200, and the economics of the Semiconductor industry won't allow that to change fundamentally.

    So, even 10 years from now, a full frame DSLR will still cost $1000 more than a comparable APS DSLR. And there is not a damn thing that can change that fact. Moore's Law does not apply to Sensors, because they cannot get physically smaller over time. The support electronics can, but the support electronics are becoming a diminishingly small portion of the die in a CMOS sensor.

    Note: I spent over a decade working for a Semiconductor company that made, among other things, CMOS imaging sensors. So I know what I'm talking about as far as the underlying costs and process economics involved with making these sensors.

  7. #32
    Senior Member Anbesol's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    That doesn't mean that full frame won't be offered in significantly cheaper DSLRS, of course they will be.

    10 years ago, could you have predicted that 4gb flash drives would be in the dollar bin at 7/11? You may have even been inclined to think that Zip drives would catch on and become the standard medium...

    Just for clarification: I'm not saying that polymagnesium/relatively high performance full frame slrs are the future, just full frame on its own.

    So, even 10 years from now, a full frame DSLR will still cost $1000 more than a comparable APS DSLR
    Okay, I'll mark your words and you can mark mine. Time will tell this one ;)
    In any event its a moot issue, full frame lens still give a greater sweet spot, which is reason enough on its own and the point of the argument in the first place, whether or not to get full frame lens .

    Curious - which semiconductor company? What clients did you sell those CMOS sensors to?

    5 years ago I had this same conversation with Nikon fans, I insisted that CMOS was the future and that CCD was a dying technology, 5 years later and while CCD is still commonly used, it is *crystal clear* that CMOS is the sensor technology of the future, undeniable at this point.

  8. #33
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Curious, what do you mean by larger "sweet spot?" I find that crop sensors have MUCH larger sweet spots than full frame, because the lenses aren't pushed as hard since only the center of the image circle is used. A wide angle crop will almost always be sharper and brighter edge-to-edge, given the same field of view. Same for telephotos too, except edge sharpness isn't as important for most applications. I think that legacy lenses are holding FF back.

    In my opinion, a better sensor in a smaller format is the future as far as image quality AND cost effectiveness goes; FF isn't going anywhere, but crop sensor technology will only get better - and it's pretty good already!
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  9. #34
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Quote Originally Posted by Anbesol
    That doesn't mean that full frame won't be offered in significantly cheaper DSLRS, of course they will be.

    10 years ago, could you have predicted that 4gb flash drives would be in the dollar bin at 7/11? You may have even been inclined to think that Zip drives would catch on and become the standard medium...

    Just for clarification: I'm not saying that polymagnesium/relatively high performance full frame slrs are the future, just full frame on its own.


    Okay, I'll mark your words and you can mark mine. Time will tell this one ;)
    In any event its a moot issue, full frame lens still give a greater sweet spot, which is reason enough on its own and the point of the argument in the first place, whether or not to get full frame lens .

    Curious - which semiconductor company? What clients did you sell those CMOS sensors to?

    5 years ago I had this same conversation with Nikon fans, I insisted that CMOS was the future and that CCD was a dying technology, 5 years later and while CCD is still commonly used, it is *crystal clear* that CMOS is the sensor technology of the future, undeniable at this point.
    The company I worked for was Conexant. Our sensors were pretty much used in phone cameras, and a few point and shoots, but the economics of sensors with respect to size are straightforward to understand. Full Frame is a special problem, because a full frame sensor can only be made using a die with a minimum 43 mm diagonal, which can't ever be reduced. That constrains it to very specialized photolithography which will become ever more of a niche over time. The way electronics are cost reduced is to downsize the die, and SLRs have fixed format sizes that can't get smaller over time. Very few other semiconductors, other than the most costly processors, require a die of around 43mm diagonal. In addition, the process to add microlenses to the finished die is specialized and extremely low volume as far as semiconductors are concerned. A big sensor is extremely difficult to cost reduce, and Moore's law doesn't apply to anything that can't be physically down-sized (unlike Camera-phone and point and shoot sensors, which are still getting smaller). The only real cost reductions that can be gained over time is to improve the process yields, and to improve the efficiency of adding the microlenses. But most of the cost is reflected in sheer silicon real estate, which can never be reduced in a sensor of fixed format size - in fact, that's going UP somewhat over time, although not as fast as yields and adding microlenses costs are going down.

    The only GOOD news about this is that both APS and Full Frame sensors will keep getting BETTER over time, because they can't get smaller, each new process generation gives the designers more free real estate to make either more pixels, or more sensitive pixels and other support circuitry around the pixels.

    Oh, and anyone who understands semiconductor process technology COULD predict that a given size memory device will continue to get cheaper forever - and that 4 GB of flash memory would soon cost under a dollar. And that Zip drives would NEVER displace solid state memory in the long term because of this. But the cost reduction mechanism which makes flash memory forever get cheaper is by downsizing the memory - that's the Moore's Law mechanism, and that mechanism doesn't apply to sensors that have to have a fixed physical size.

    The bottom line is that a full frame sensor will NEVER cost under $200. Which means that a full frame camera body will NEVER cost under $1000 - and more likely, never cost under $1500 if it's made of metal with an optical pentaprism and a rugged shutter. And when they do cost $1500, otherwise similar APS bodies will cost $500 tops.

  10. #35
    Senior Member Anbesol's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Well 10 years is a long time.
    The bottom line is that a full frame sensor will NEVER cost under $200
    I understand your reasoning, and its pretty sound, I just disagree. I could be wrong, but the last thing I think we can do is to be positively certain about a market 10 years from now.
    Oh, and anyone who understands semiconductor process technology COULD predict that a given size memory device will continue to get cheaper forever - and that 4 GB of flash memory would soon cost under a dollar.
    10 years ago floppy disks were still being used, but their size was a little less than favorable. Zip disks became moderately popular for a brief period but the cost of the disks were pretty high, yet at that time they were still much much cheaper than flash memory. 10 years ago many had predicted (including the people of Iomega) that Zip disks would become some sort of standard medium. Today, flash memory costs 1/1000th the price of zip disks, 10 years ago they cost 3 times more.
    I find that crop sensors have MUCH larger sweet spots than full frame, because the lenses aren't pushed as hard since only the center of the image circle is used.
    Yes, thats what I was saying, you must have misunderstood me. Thats why I said he should still stick with full frame lens even paired with APS sensors. I didn't say that full frame *sensors* give greater sweet spots, but their lens on APS.

  11. #36
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Quote Originally Posted by Anbesol
    Well 10 years is a long time. I understand your reasoning, and its pretty sound, I just disagree. I could be wrong, but the last thing I think we can do is to be positively certain about a market 10 years from now.
    You are wrong. As long as these sensors are Semiconductors, they will follow the immutable economic trends that Semiconductors have followed for the entire 40 year history of the technology. In fact, the things that keep making MOST semiconductors cheaper over time, are actually working to make DSLR sensors MORE expensive over time - see below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Anbesol
    10 years ago floppy disks were still being used, but their size was a little less than favorable. Zip disks became moderately popular for a brief period but the cost of the disks were pretty high, yet at that time they were still much much cheaper than flash memory. 10 years ago many had predicted (including the people of Iomega) that Zip disks would become some sort of standard medium. Today, flash memory costs 1/1000th the price of zip disks, 10 years ago they cost 3 times more.
    And that was all predictable, and predicted by those same economic trends I have referred to. The folks who made memory chips knew damn well when their technology would become viable for mass storage. The fact that the likes of Iomega did not understand this is immaterial - they were not chip makers. Chipmakers knew and know when they would be displacing each type of non-semiconductor storage media, as Moore's Law marches inexorably on. But again, remember - Moore's law does NOT apply to sensors - so the cost arguments of MOST semiconductor technology does NOT drive sensors that must comport to a fixed format size. In fact, it works COUNTER to it, because as the REST of the chip market keeps going to smaller and smaller chips, the processes that are needed to make sensors get more and more exotic and specialized over time, and economies of scale work AGAINST SLR sensors when they can't be made on commodity process fabs.

  12. #37
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    who knows what the future holds? Personally I think that all of the formats will diverge and mature - FF for fine art pros, APS and 4/3 for hobbyists and working pros. The differences will become more severe as technology improves, and they can all refine and develop their strengths.

    Now I see what you are saying about sweet spots - FF lenses will have a larger sweet spot on crop sensors. Agreed. However, some manufacturer's digital specific lenses create finer images, all things equal. The ZD lenses correct incidence angle so that light strikes the sensor at the optimum angle. They are engineered for corner to corner sharpness and brightness. Sure the sensor lags behind the APS sensors, but the lenses are superior to 90% of the other stuff out there.

    Canikon could really improve their lines by making digital specific superior lenses. it's just a matter of building lenses for the format rather than building a format that works with out-of-date lenses. A FF camera with a digital-corrected FF lens would be killer - but that's gunna be one huge and heavy lens! They are going to have to consider things like this if FF sensors are going to be built to have more resolution - the lenses are already showing flaws on the sensors we have today! The benefit of a large sensor is only as good as it's lens! I see lens quality as the limiting factor for FF format...
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  13. #38
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Quote Originally Posted by Sushigaijin
    Now I see what you are saying about sweet spots - FF lenses will have a larger sweet spot on crop sensors. Agreed. However, some manufacturer's digital specific lenses create finer images, all things equal. The ZD lenses correct incidence angle so that light strikes the sensor at the optimum angle. They are engineered for corner to corner sharpness and brightness. Sure the sensor lags behind the APS sensors, but the lenses are superior to 90% of the other stuff out there.
    Some are, most aren't. I'd go so far as to say that, other than the 7-14, 9-18, 11-22, 12-60, and 14-50, and 25mm pancake, none of the other Olympus lenses do anything special in this regard. Some of the others, like the 35-100, and 55-200 are very good lenses, but there is nothing unique in their designs to make them telecentric - other than the fact that the format itself requires a smaller image circle, thus causing more direct angle of incidence. And other super-wide lenses that use retrofocus designs from other manufacturers are also designed this way - it's not at all unique to Olympus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sushigaijin
    Canikon could really improve their lines by making digital specific superior lenses. it's just a matter of building lenses for the format rather than building a format that works with out-of-date lenses. A FF camera with a digital-corrected FF lens would be killer - but that's gunna be one huge and heavy lens! They are going to have to consider things like this if FF sensors are going to be built to have more resolution - the lenses are already showing flaws on the sensors we have today! The benefit of a large sensor is only as good as it's lens! I see lens quality as the limiting factor for FF format...
    It is true that one thing Olympus had going for it was that they actually NEEDED to design many of their lenses, especially the shorter ones, from scratch, because they started with a new format. Canon and Nikon did take a short cut initially, in that they used the same lens mount as their film cameras. But, for the smaller sensor cameras, they too needed to design new wide angles, and in doing so, they did the same things that Olympus did as far as telecentricity. And Olympus also pulled many of their longer telephoto designs off the shelf from 35mm land - some were their own, and some were licensed from partners like Sigma. The only thing that makes those lenses more telecentric than the ones for Nikon and Canon is that Olympus crops the image circle even tighter for their smaller sensor.

  14. #39
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougjgreen
    ...And when they do cost $1500, otherwise similar APS bodies will cost $500 tops.
    I would agree with those kinds of figures, but in 5~7 years instead of 10+

    I also agree with the others who think that APS, full-frame, and 4/3 formats will all continue to develop their own markets.

    But I don't think the price differential will be strictly due to the manufacturing costs of the sensors alone. I can imagine APS cameras taking on a more agressive evolution route of "smaller, lighter, cheaper" and thus diverging from the full-frame group. To me, the Canon 40D/50D line doesn't make marketing sense in light of the falling prices of the 5D (and eventually the 5DmkII and its future replacement). I think that that physical size will eventually become the hallmark of only full-frame cameras.

    And when they do become $500/$1500 cameras, who's to say that one of the manufacturers won't pop out a $3000 medium format sensor? Even if the pixel technology remains the same across the formats, there will always be those who want the small, medium, and large stuff. Given the same imaging technology, "bigger" always equalled "better" in terms of image quality (OK not exactly, but I think you get my drift).

    Or do we think that, when that time comes, there won't possibly be any need to have imaging sensors larger than 24mm x 36mm?
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Quote Originally Posted by Loupey
    And when they do become $500/$1500 cameras, who's to say that one of the manufacturers won't pop out a $3000 medium format sensor? Even if the pixel technology remains the same across the formats, there will always be those who want the small, medium, and large stuff.
    The only fly in this ointment is that it's probably always going to be impossible to make a monolithic semiconductor sensor that's that big. In general, Medium format sensors use multiple die (usually 4) packed together on the same substrate. And this introduces other costs needed to align and calibrate the 4 sensors together, as well as more complex packaging. So, at a minimum, the cost of a medium format sensor will always be several times the cost of a full 35mm frame sensor.

    BTW, I don't doubt that APS sensor SLRs might some day - even rather soon, diverge from the current form factor - Just look at what Panasonic has done with the G1, eliminating the optical finder light path, for a preview.

  16. #41
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougjgreen
    ...BTW, I don't doubt that APS sensor SLRs might some day - even rather soon, diverge from the current form factor - Just look at what Panasonic has done with the G1, eliminating the optical finder light path, for a preview.
    That's a good point about the OVF. Eliminating that would definitely fit the "smaller, lighter, cheaper" mode and make the transition easier for those coming up from the P&S arena.

    So long as there remains a line which has the OVF (perhaps only in the full-frame line in the future) for die-hards like me who can only see the world through a viewfinder
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  17. #42
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougjgreen
    The only fly in this ointment is that it's probably always going to be impossible to make a monolithic semiconductor sensor that's that big. In general, Medium format sensors use multiple die (usually 4) packed together on the same substrate. And this introduces other costs needed to align and calibrate the 4 sensors together, as well as more complex packaging. So, at a minimum, the cost of a medium format sensor will always be several times the cost of a full 35mm frame sensor.
    That's OK. It wasn't too long ago that we were primed into thinking that the lowest price point to have full-frame was $3,500. So comparing $3,500 of then-dollars to perhaps $5,000 of future-dollars for medium format would be a steal.

    I didn't sell my medium format gear in hopes of someday getting a digital back for it. But the last time I checked, such a back cost $20,000+
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  18. #43
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Doug, we can keep going back and forth. I understand what you are saying, I just disagree, I am not *positive* nor could I say any specific time frame (be it 7, 8, 10, or 15 years). You are talking about the sensor as if it was the only real part to the SLR, its not, aside from that and the pentaprism, what *necessary* difference is there between APS/Full frame? Full frame cameras don't require magnesium alloy casing, for example. And I am a bit put off by your professing absolute knowledge of the future, you are not psychic, and markets have frequently went ways that were unpredictable and/or far fetched. All we can do now is wait and see... If in 10 years APS is still around with a clear and obvious future, I'll buy you a drink.

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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Quote Originally Posted by Anbesol
    Doug, we can keep going back and forth. I understand what you are saying, I just disagree, I am not *positive* nor could I say any specific time frame (be it 7, 8, 10, or 15 years). You are talking about the sensor as if it was the only real part to the SLR, its not, aside from that and the pentaprism, what *necessary* difference is there between APS/Full frame? Full frame cameras don't require magnesium alloy casing, for example. And I am a bit put off by your professing absolute knowledge of the future, you are not psychic, and markets have frequently went ways that were unpredictable and/or far fetched. All we can do now is wait and see... If in 10 years APS is still around with a clear and obvious future, I'll buy you a drink.
    The issue is that you disagree without any rational basis, or any understanding of the actual economics of making sensors. I can't figure out WHY you think full frame sensors will get cheaper over time, other than simple wishful thinking. I was in the semiconductor business for nearly 20 years, and for quite a bit of that time, my job was to plan product development and pricing, which involved understanding what these devices would cost, both now and in the future as the technology migrated to future process technologies. There are very specific reasons that most IC-based products get cheaper over time. The vast majority of those reasons don't happen to apply to sensors, and in fact, the long term trends of semiconductor production will actually work AGAINST full frame sensors coming down in cost, now and forever into the future, as long as they are semiconductor devices.

    That's NOT an opinion. It's a fact, based on a detailed understanding of the underlying technology used to make them. Unless someone suddenly discovers an entirely different way to make a digital imaging sensor, using some technology that is NOT a semiconductor-based integrated circuit, that simply will not change, despite your wishing it so.

    The fact is, today, the Full Frame sensor chip ALONE represents about half the cost of a Canon 5D Mk II or a Nikon A700. In the future, if the REST of the camera (and we're talking about mostly optical and mechanical components and body castings here) were to cost a mere 30% of what it does now, those cameras would STILL have to sell for about $1500 to be profitable for the manufacturers. That's reality. And in that scenario, the sensor chip itself represents at least 70% of the entire cost of the camera. If the rest of the camera cost NOTHING to make, the camera manufacturer would still need to sell the thing for close to $1200, given the margin models that they need to operate on (these cameras sell for around 5X the parts cost upon introduction).

    Again, at the same time that a Full Frame SLR costs $1500, with a total parts cost of ~ $300, a high end APS-sensor SLR, say the a Nikon D600 mk II or a Canon EOS 90D, will probably sell for $500 with a total parts cost of ~$100. And nearly the ENTIRE $200 difference will be in the sensor cost.
    Last edited by Dougjgreen; 01-30-2009 at 10:58 PM.

  20. #45
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    well, my point wasn't intended to be "olympus makes the best lenses," because there are a LOT of good lenses out there. I'm just concerned that FF format is butting up against a wall that is old lens technology. Certainly other manufacturers have digital-specific lenses that are very good - but that method of lens design needs to be integrated into the market where legacy lenses rule - full frame. Digital specific full-frame lenses, and super high resolution lenses, need to be designed to cope with the incredible rendering ability of FF sensors.
    Erik Williams

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    12-60 SWD, 50-200 SWD, 50 f/2 macro, EX25, FL36's and an FL50r.

  21. #46
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    How about a K20 and the DA* 50-135 with a 540 flash.
    Camera and flash are competent and the lens is already legendary.
    That should give you what you need and save you a few bucks too.
    Look through a glass eye.
    Give it a few tries.
    Nothing goes right in its time.
    --Tally Hall--

  22. #47
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Quote Originally Posted by Sushigaijin
    well, my point wasn't intended to be "olympus makes the best lenses," because there are a LOT of good lenses out there. I'm just concerned that FF format is butting up against a wall that is old lens technology. Certainly other manufacturers have digital-specific lenses that are very good - but that method of lens design needs to be integrated into the market where legacy lenses rule - full frame. Digital specific full-frame lenses, and super high resolution lenses, need to be designed to cope with the incredible rendering ability of FF sensors.
    Frankly, 4/3 is probably closer to butting up against the limits of the lenses than Full Frame is, because the pixel density of a 12 MP 4/3 sensor is twice that of a 21 MP Full Frame Sensor. For a given resolution - say 12 MP, the pixel density of 4/3 is ~50% greater than APS, and around 3.5 times the density of Full Frame. And having used many legacy lenses on 4/3, I can state that only very good legacy lenses can really resolve the pixel density of a 10 MP 4/3 sensor - and only the VERY best legacy lenses can do it wide open, most need to be stopped down 1-2 f-stops to outresolve a 10 MP 4/3 sensor. This is why Olympus needed to really design many of their lenses from scratch for their new format. When they introduced the format, with a 5 MP sensor, it wasn't that much of an issue, but they certainly knew that at resolutions of 10 MP and above on that small sensor, they were going to need better lenses than what was out there.

    The other issue, is angle of incidence in the corners of the frame. This is the one area that the 4/3 sensor has an advantage, compared to full frame. Most legacy lenses are quite a bit weaker in the corners of a full frame than they are in the center - in addition, there are diffraction effects and caused by the glass cover that is atop the sensor pixels, and thickness effects of the pixels themselves - because they use multiple metal layers of the semiconductor. These effects serve to scatter the light that hits the corners on an angle, across adjacent pixels. In general, this is not a major problem with telephoto lenses, but it is a problem with wide angles - and why modern wide angles designed for the digital format they are used for, are much better than legacy wide angles.

    But APS has very nearly as much of an advantage as 4/3 compared to full frame as far as angle of incidence is concerned, and noticeably less disadvantage with respect to pixel density.

    So, there are TWO factors involved in making lenses work with the newer digital sensors. Both high resolution and angle of incidence are issues. Physically smaller sensors have a worse issue with resolution, while bigger sensors have a worse issue with angle of incidence.

  23. #48
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    Re: Nikon D90 or Pentax k20d or Cannon 50d

    Nikon D90 all the way, I've tried them all, D90 is the winner!http://www.stepanovphotography.com

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