list em as you think em, i got a bunch!

the 4:3 aspect ratio!
changing focal range to numberX

certain manufacturers campaigning advertisements based on "ease of use", rather then help the industry, promote the stupidity ;).

anyway - just found out samsungs pro815 was actually a 28-420, and they get to call it a 15x, compared to the rest of the bunch, being 36-432 being called 12X. lol - what an awesome marketting stunt.. not too surprised by it, but i'll be sure to be hearing people whove got it bragging about their "15X zoom".... lol

how about this one - making the standards for comparisons too megapixel based - far too many people think that the megapixel is the technology of the camera and nothing else.

i mean seriously, come on, "ease of use"??? were nurturing the unambitious, never-wanna-read-a-manual lazy couch potatoes in this culture. whats worse? these cameras are allready incredibly EASY TO USE! if anything, i say we make them harder, give people a challenge once in a while, promote some discovery and critical thinking!

What don't you like about the 4:3 aspect ratio? Isn't that what 35mm was? I kinda like it. It's unfortunate that we often limit ourselves to standard picture frame aspect ratios.

I think the ideal camera sensor would be round to capture all of the acceptable area of a lens. Different aspect ratio frames could be displayed in the viewfinder/lcd by menu choices or cycled through with a button and we wouldn't have to assume awkward hand positions for shooting vertical shots. Keeping the whole shot for later cropping would be an option.

list em as you think em, i got a bunch!
the 4:3 aspect ratio!
changing focal range to numberX ..

Well 4:3 is the standard format for video and television, so there is some logic for that.


certain manufacturers campaigning advertisements based on "ease of use", rather then help the industry, promote the stupidity ;)..

I really think you are misinterpretting "ease of use". "Ease of use" does not mean lack of features or no flexibility or a camera built for the non-photographer. Popular Photography defines ease of use as good design,...natural feel, features that are easy to reach and fast to adjust, secure battery and card compartments that won't open by accident or break off etc. In short, a camera whose design helps rather than hampers the serious photographer.
Design is certainly number 1, when I am looking for a new camera and that includes "ease of use" as Popular Photography defines it.

anyway - just found out samsungs pro815 was actually a 28-420, and they get to call it a 15x, compared to the rest of the bunch, being 36-432 being called 12X. lol - what an awesome marketting stunt.. not too surprised by it, but i'll be sure to be hearing people whove got it bragging about their "15X zoom".... lol;)..

According to the tests, the resolution of the Samsung Pro 815 is excellent, matching most other cameras with 8 megapixels including DSLRs. Using RAW and being careful in your exposure and it would be possible to get some great shots from it.


how about this one - making the standards for comparisons too megapixel based - far too many people think that the megapixel is the technology of the camera and nothing else.

I don't have a problem with that either. Despite the myths, cameras with the same megapixel count, generally resolve the same number of diagonal lines, and sharpness is generally what most people are concerned about. Noise differs from camera to camera but if you shoot mostly at ISO 100 and often use a tripod, it becomes less important.
As to the importance of the dynamics of tone, it depends on whether you do most of your work with the camera or with Photoshop. Nevertheless printers limit the result anyway.
So megapixels is really the only constant, since you can't really work around resolution very well.

Ronnoco

Chunk, the ratio for 35mm is 2:3. It's a litte wider. But, I don't have a problem with any aspect ratio. It's all a matter of getting used to what you have. Especially since cropping digital is so easy.

I don't think the worst things to happen to photography have any thing to do with consumer based point and shoot digital cameras. In my opinion, anything that gets the masses more interested in photography, can only build appreciation for those who are really good at it, and drive down costs for high end equipment. If the monkeys at the zoo had money, I'd say the photography industry should design a camera for them.

I think the the worst thing to happen to the photography industry is the slow painful death of film. Granted, there may not be much use for 35mm anymore, but MF and LF are still valuable, and are suffering due to the decline in 35mm. 35mm is to the film industry what the Civic is to Honda. With out the profits from 35mm, the cost of MF and LF will inevitably go up. I know you can get a MF SLR for dirt cheap at the moment, but that's because so many of them have been discontinued. In the long run, this will just make those awesome LF prints less common. And personally, I'm going to miss them. I hope I'm wrong.

Don't get me wrong. I think digital is great, and I know film will never be completely dead. I think the scenario I describe above is necessary, and over all it's good. Still, that's my answer to the question.

Paul

Ugh!

list em as you think em, i got a bunch!

the 4:3 aspect ratio!
changing focal range to numberX

Trivial matters. Think about photography instead of getting mired in technical issues. There is nothing evil about 4:3. There is nothing evil about posting factors in addition to focal lengths.

certain manufacturers campaigning advertisements based on "ease of use", rather then help the industry, promote the stupidity ;).

So, the more complex something is the "smarter" the product? I suppose that every time you use a telephone you manually set the switches, right? We wouldn't want to promote stupidity in phone users.. Your argument is sounds like snobbery. The vast majority of people buy cameras to preserve memories, not to become photo techno-geeks.

anyway - just found out samsungs pro815 was actually a 28-420, and they get to call it a 15x, compared to the rest of the bunch, being 36-432 being called 12X. lol - what an awesome marketting stunt.. not too surprised by it, but i'll be sure to be hearing people whove got it bragging about their "15X zoom".... lol

If this is truly the case, they can be reported for false advertising. What is wrong with bragging about a "15x zoom"? How many people here brag about their Canon L lenses or their Googleplex Megapixels but rarely do anything but post web photos and print 4x6?

how about this one - making the standards for comparisons too megapixel based - far too many people think that the megapixel is the technology of the camera and nothing else.

This is called marketing and capitalism. Do you want big government to come in and start dictating how these cameras may be advertised? What about the way all other products are sold? Will you really become sophisticated and elegant if you by car X?

Photography has always had snobbery. "My photos are better because they took more trouble to get." "I used manual focus rather than autofocus." "Manual exposure is more pure than aperture mode." "Film is pure, digital is cheating." This list is endless. I applaud the widespread use of cameras by the "stupid." More power to them.

Chunk, the ratio for 35mm is 2:3. It's a litte wider. But, I don't have a problem with any aspect ratio. It's all a matter of getting used to what you have. Especially since cropping digital is so easy.
Thanks Paul. I was thinking that a full frame print was a 9x12.

...anyway - just found out samsungs pro815 was actually a 28-420, and they get to call it a 15x, compared to the rest of the bunch, being 36-432 being called 12X. lol - what an awesome marketting stunt.. not too surprised by it, but i'll be sure to be hearing people whove got it bragging about their "15X zoom".....

Correct me if my math is wrong but 420 is 15 times larger then 28 so X or 15:1 is correct. Same with 36-432 being X or 12:1. You can usually find the equivalent focal length somewhere.

anyway - just found out samsungs pro815 was actually a 28-420, and they get to call it a 15x,

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the focal length is actually 7.2 - 108.0mm; it's the 35mm film equivalent that's: 28 - 420 mm

One reason for giving the 35mm equvalents is because without it, the focal lengths are difficult to appreciate without the sensor size

The recent sell-off of Mamiya cannot be a good omen.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Sony buying KM.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the focal length is actually 7.2 - 108.0mm; it's the 35mm film equivalent that's: 28 - 420 mm

One reason for giving the 35mm equvalents is because without it, the focal lengths are difficult to appreciate without the sensor size
no bubble has been burst - exactly what i said, they get 8 mm wider, and 12 mm less telephoto and theyre "3x more". what does this say to joe consumer? that it "zooms in more", and most everybody that sees it, will assume its true, buy the camera, and never know any better. the truth of the matter is that the s2 zooms in further, but it doesnt go as wide.

all that i said, is absolutely arguable, except that numberX. measuring focal ranges in 3x/4x /10x etc is silly, complete and utter silliness.

I dont mean make a camera difficult for somebody to use, but if they switch to "auto" mode and without the written words displayed on the camera "this is automatic mode, use for taking general pictures, click teh shutter button on the top to use" then people would sit there and scratch their heads.

to explain further - I sell these products day in and day out - if i didnt, i really wouldnt care, but im just getting real tired of people being absolutely silly about them. "oh but kodaks are sooo easy to use!", as if any other camera out there is friggin difficult. and "ooooh this has to be better its got 8 megapixels not 7!", and my favorite - "this is only a 7x zoom?"... i end up repeating myself, and every time i repeat that, it just makes me feel stupider for saying what SHOULD be obvious to anybody with a fraction of a brain. whats teh worst of it all is that some of these people really believe the crap they say. "oh kodaks are great", "oh hp printers are just wonderful"... GRR!! i need a vacation ;)

and yes - minoltas leaving the industry too :(

and ronnoco - yes, that version of the phrase "ease of use" is not the one i was reffering to. I was reffering to "ease of use" when kodak says it, basically implying their competitors cameras take a rocket scientist to operate.

again - you guys dont have to deal with joe consumer day in and day out - if you did, you may get a bit tired repeating what "10x" optical means. and i still hate that 4:3 aspect ratio ;)

clip.....
to explain further - I sell these products day in and day out - if i didnt, i really wouldnt care, but im just getting real tired of people being absolutely silly about them. "oh but kodaks are sooo easy to use!", as if any other camera out there is friggin difficult. and "ooooh this has to be better its got 8 megapixels not 7!", and my favorite - "this is only a 7x zoom?"... i end up repeating myself, and every time i repeat that, it just makes me feel stupider for saying what SHOULD be obvious to anybody with a fraction of a brain. whats teh worst of it all is that some of these people really believe the crap they say. "oh kodaks are great", "oh hp printers are just wonderful"... GRR!! i need a vacation ;)

and yes - minoltas leaving the industry too :(

and ronnoco - yes, that version of the phrase "ease of use" is not the one i was reffering to. I was reffering to "ease of use" when kodak says it, basically implying their competitors cameras take a rocket scientist to operate.

again - you guys dont have to deal with joe consumer day in and day out - if you did, you may get a bit tired repeating what "10x" optical means. and i still hate that 4:3 aspect ratio ;)

Yes I've gone into a classroom were the Prof say's it's broken and they Have Not Turned the equipment on! The more letter they have behind their name the more problems with them operating/using the classroom equipment.

And "oh hp printers are just wonderful" what crap I hate the HP inkjet printers but I love the LaserJet printers. If the inkjets output see's water and the print is no good, the are layed out in the sun it fades away. Pigmented ink is the only ink to use. (There is a reason the most Graphic Artists use Epson Inkjet Printers)

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Sony buying KM.
I have to disagree, I think that's a good thing, at least on the SLR side of things. Minolta was doing a horrible job competing in that market. How many years after Canon introduced the D30 did it take Minolta to bring a DSLR to the market? Even though they had a 35mm platform (the Maxxum 7) that was obviously designed with an eye towards digital. Unlike Konica-Minolta, Sony actually wants to compete in the DSLR market.

I guess this is the end of the road for KM's compact digicams, and 35mm, but neither of those losses is earthshattering.

The drawback I see with Sony is that they have way too many proprietary technologies they put into their products and force us to use them. Like memory sticks for instance (and all of their confusing iterations). Honestly, the technology there is not as good as on competing alternatives, but if you have a Sony camera, PDA, laptop etc, it is the only option for media card storage. They have done this sort of thing with many of their product lines. It is the same with their Blu-Ray DVD format.

But if it all goes well, and their line-up is successful and a boon to those who use the Minolta lens mount, then it is definitely better than KM going away completely.

Yes I've gone into a classroom were the Prof say's it's broken and they Have Not Turned the equipment on! The more letter they have behind their name the more problems with them operating/using the classroom equipment.

And "oh hp printers are just wonderful" what crap I hate the HP inkjet printers but I love the LaserJet printers. If the inkjets output see's water and the print is no good, the are layed out in the sun it fades away. Pigmented ink is the only ink to use. (There is a reason the most Graphic Artists use Epson Inkjet Printers)
yes exactly - i agree, hp's are junk, and i hear customers praise them for being "so awesome" all the time, and i want to and sometimes am able to correct them. still, its annoying...

The drawback I see with Sony is that they have way too many proprietary technologies they put into their products and force us to use them. Like memory sticks for instance (and all of their confusing iterations). Honestly, the technology there is not as good as on competing alternatives, but if you have a Sony camera, PDA, laptop etc, it is the only option for media card storage. They have done this sort of thing with many of their product lines. It is the same with their Blu-Ray DVD format.

But if it all goes well, and their line-up is successful and a boon to those who use the Minolta lens mount, then it is definitely better than KM going away completely.
yes - and working in a dealer, i see a TON of sony's coming back for repairs. theyre great cameras but i dont know about quality of build. maybe its just a coincidence....

Sony has used CF cards in their higher end digicams for a few years now. The DSC-F828, V3 and R1 all have dual card slots. I have no doubt their DSLRs will be the same way. Maybe the low end model will only support Memory Sticks, but that's not a whole lot different from the Nikon D50 using SD cards.

Sony has used CF cards in their higher end digicams for a few years now. The DSC-F828, V3 and R1 all have dual card slots. I have no doubt their DSLRs will be the same way. Maybe the low end model will only support Memory Sticks, but that's not a whole lot different from the Nikon D50 using SD cards.

Good. I'm glad to see this. Thanks for the clarification on their high end stuff. But my gripe sill partially stands. D50's may use SD cards, but so do many other manufacturers. Memory sticks are fine, I just don't like their inherent exclusivity.

I do think that having seen some recent pics from an R1 (my father-in-law just bought one), the Minolta mount is in good image quality hands.

to explain further - I sell these products day in and day out - if i didnt, i really wouldnt care, but im just getting real tired of people being absolutely silly about them. "oh but kodaks are sooo easy to use!", as if any other camera out there is friggin difficult. and "ooooh this has to be better its got 8 megapixels not 7!", and my favorite - "this is only a 7x zoom?"... i end up repeating myself, and every time i repeat that, it just makes me feel stupider for saying what SHOULD be obvious to anybody with a fraction of a brain. whats teh worst of it all is that some of these people really believe the crap they say. "oh kodaks are great", "oh hp printers are just wonderful"... GRR!! i need a vacation ;)


again - you guys dont have to deal with joe consumer day in and day out - if you did, you may get a bit tired repeating what "10x" optical means. and i still hate that 4:3 aspect ratio ;)

AMEN!!

I had a discussion with a woman the other day, and she insisted I was wrong because the 6MP Kodak MUST be better than the Kodak 5MP, because it has more MP. The 5MP had more advanced functions, and a more useful ISO range. Do you think she understood that? Nope! Just 6 is better than 5. Even if they were equally matched, the one for $150 more must be better according to her. Even the Canon S2-IS was a little less than what she wanted, because it had only 5MP not the 6 of Kodak. DOH!

CONSUMERS ROCK!!! :D

The only bad thing to happen to photography is people thinking that just because something was done some certain way in the past, that somehow something new is "bad."

Memory sticks are fine, I just don't like their inherent exclusivity.
I can see the point, but aren't lenses and dedicated flashes essentially like that, too?

The one thing that bugs me about Memory Sticks is compatibility. Sony has at least three significantly different models, and they are not interchangable with all Sony digital cameras.

I can see the point, but aren't lenses and dedicated flashes essentially like that, too?

Touche, my debate winning friend. :)

I'm sure that Autofocus cameras created similar discussions at camera clubs back in the day (before internet forums, of course). Same could be said of Hasselblads and 35mm going back a little further.

Most people buying cameras don't know much about them or photography (there is a difference). If you don't know much about any given product, it's natural to make a decision by specs and prices. Customers are always right! :)

AMEN!!

I had a discussion with a woman the other day, and she insisted I was wrong because the 6MP Kodak MUST be better than the Kodak 5MP, because it has more MP. The 5MP had more advanced functions, and a more useful ISO range. Do you think she understood that? Nope! Just 6 is better than 5. Even if they were equally matched, the one for $150 more must be better according to her. Even the Canon S2-IS was a little less than what she wanted, because it had only 5MP not the 6 of Kodak. DOH!

CONSUMERS ROCK!!! :D
yep... i deal with that aaallll the time. its quite annoying. apperantly the vivitar 8300 is better then the D70s ;)

oh yeah, and how about this one - customer walks up to SLR case, sees the "big old lens (18-70)" and say "WOW! whats that, like, a 20x zoom?", imagine their shock when i say "no, 4"...
If you don't know much about any given product, it's natural to make a decision by specs and prices.
oh absolutely - but many of these customers are just so confident in the difference in specs. the same people that say "well this processors better because it has more gigahertz".