I need your expert sideline experience!

We are in the middle of State Playoffs here in NJ. This whole season I have been shooting the games. It wasn't until the playoffs that people started asking us who we were and who we were shooting for.

My buddy and I started www.shoresportsrewind.com, doing video highlights and stills (none of which are up). Our intent was to do highlights and stills and get local advertisers to put ads on the pages. Then we realized someone else was doing the same thing, but for a lot longer than us www.shoreconferencefootball.com. He does photos & videos, but he takes it a step further and sells them. So, of course that made me think of selling my photos because people at games have already expressed interest.

Now this weekend we show up at a school for the playoffs and I'm ont he sideline with 4 local newspaper phtoographers and this other photographer. He goes up to my buddy shooting video and bitches about have we have no right to shoot photos and put them on our site because he has a contract with the school to do all of their sports. Then he was freaking about us selling the photos and that the AD needs to know about all of this.

The local newspapers sell the photos, our competitor sells photos through PrintRoom, so why can't we??? I'm so fired up about this guy giving us crap. He didn't even have the balls to talk to me. Then we saw him complaining to the other photographers about us and the AD. No one said anyhting to me directly and when I was hot and bothered about it, I was talking loud so the AD would hear me. He still never said anything.

Now I respect this TOOL for being a photographer, but why does he feel threatened by us? is he right about selling photos? Isn't there some rule out there about photos similar to free speech? People sell photos of people everday like to tabloids and such.

Anyone here ever have similar issues? Could you fill me in on this in case I'm reading it wrong?

Whew, this is a whole nuther can of worms! And this could get VERY long. To start with though, check with the state athletic association.

Being playoffs this raises all kinds of issues that are not normal during the regular season. One of which is that the images may require a licensing fee payable to the state athletic association to be sold.

As for the school photographer, they are like a track photographer at a race track, they may, or may not have exclusive rights to sell photos. The first track I shot at I got a cut, the second I got everything. Anyone else caught selling was barred from the tracks by the owner...all I had to do was tell security and they yanked the offenders credentials and threw them out (literally!).
School photographers are normally pretty easy to deal with, but, just like racing you run into the occasional jerk who thinks they are Gods gift to photography and try and control everything. Some of these guys make a ton of money, however most work on a small contract thats like a $100 per game and then sell photos to try and make up the difference. Some of these contracts do have a clause that prohibits other photographers from stepping on their toes and selling photos.

Question, who did you get your credentials through to get on the sidelines? That could have a bearing on what you are allowed to do. There are many in's and outs on this. I too run a similar website in Indiana. It's even trickier here as many scools now have AUP privacy rules now. Basically the kids and their parents (for minors) have to sign the AUP to allow use of photos on websites, school paper and even in the newspaper....talk about a nightmare for me. I have to check to make sure they have an AUP on file or I can't use their photo. Fortunately this year we haven't had that happen yet. Last year there was one girl on the basketball team that refused to sign, fortunately she rarely played and when she did I was able to crop her out. :)

I'd be careful in this case, if you got your credentials from the AD call him, be polite, explain you don't want any problems and ask him if a parent asks for copies of a photo if you can sell them. Do the same with the athletic association if they gave you the credentials. They may want a cut though!

Photographing kids, even in public is getting tougher to do all the time, and has many legal issues involved and you have to be very carefull doing so. This is one reason I will not take photos of cheerleaders, even when the cheer coaches ask me too. I will only do it if each cheerleader and their parents also sign a release. I do not worry about this when it is a photo where they are in the background during a basketball game because there isn't much I can do about that.

JS

Question, who did you get your credentials through to get on the sidelines?I was hoping you'd respond. You are right on when it comes to this stuff. I got my credentials from the NJSIAA, which is the state organization that runs the show. They and the school ADs have final say on everything it seems. We let the NJSIAA know exactly what were doing when the season started, but the selling issue is more recent.

This started because my buddy is a teacher and loves sports and I love photography and build websites for a living. It was supposed to be an online sports show for the students. it quickly evolved into being a very good local source for football info. We found out people were more into the standings, schedules and scores, than anything else. The video clips are still the focus and soon my photos will go up, just have had no time.

I'm a newbie to this. I really want to know all the rules. And if these other guys are selling photos on print room, why can't I?

Thanks so much for your info and experience on this.

Well the school photog may have a contract saying he is the only one allowed to sell photos from that school.

The athletic association may have a different set of rules for playoff time. I'd call the association and ask them if a parent wants a picture can I sell it to them or not. If they say it's ok then I'd still check with the AD, if he says it's OK then do not worry about the other photog.

BTW, Indiana has the worlds largest high school football forum - Gridiron Digest with over 6,000 members.

JS

The #1 thing to do for now is just ignore the guy. If there was a problem, I'm sure the AD would have said something to you about it. That isn't always a given, but more often than not, it is the case.

As for the photographer, just ignore him for now. He might be threatened by your pressence there. There is no reason to give him any more ammo by engaging him in an argument. If anything, his attitude towards you guys might mean that his contract won't be renewed. That too is an assumption, but I feel its a safe one.

Actually masdog, this is the typical reaction of a photog who is trying to defend their turf AND income. You do not want to mess with a photogs income!
This is normal at race tracks as well, and in most cases the track photographer has exclusive rights to sell their photos and have anyone else trying to sell booted.

You cannot ignore him, that could get you sued, and it could get you barred from further access to future events. The best bet is to talk to the state association and AD as I mentioned. If this photog has exclusive rights you cannot infringe on him or he has every right to sue you.

As I said before in freelance threads, this IS a cutthroat business, and this is just one way you can get your throat cut.

JS

I dealt with a high school that required an AUP release earlier this year. I was kinda surprised that they required it, seeing as how high school sports are public events held on public property. But as they are minors (that, in the case of many cheerleaders, can look rather...um...developed), and the media has made a big deal out of pedophilia in society, parents and schools can get rather overprotective.

I recently had the opportunity to get some of my pictures used in a TV commercial. Every year, my Fraternity hold an annual Halloween event for local kids, and the last couple years I have taken pictures at the event to use for the next year. We usually used the pictures in house to document the event when we send in our yearly awards packet and maybe when we send out information for sponsorships.

Well, this year, our advisor got advertising space on a TV station in Milwaukee about 1 day before he needed the pictures to put together a commercial. As the pictures we've taken in past years had only been used in-house, I never bothered to get waivers from the parents to use the pictures. That led to a rather heated argument, and the chapter advisor hasn't talked to me in almost a month. But then he's the type of guy who, if he doesn't get his way, will hold it against you (doesn't matter that I was trying to protect myself...).

Well we talked to the NJSIAA (the state) today and found out some interesting things, but they don't seem to know everything themselves. It's mostly old men and women who don't even know how to use the internet.

We specifically asked for Playoff information since we are in the middle of it. At any playoff game, we are not allowed to take photos and SELL them afterwards, but we can any other time of the season. I know no one here is concened with video, but we can't do that during playoffs unless we pay $125 commercial fee. It's not worth it to us, so that's out this weekend. The other thing the state said was to check in with the Site Manager (school AD) to make sure we can do what we intend.

So unfortunately that tool of a photographer was right about us not being able to take photos there and sell them, but we are aloud to shoot to heart's content and NOT sell them. :D

My goal now is to get in as best I can with the ADs.

Thats pretty much what I figured, it's the same here. The way to make $$ though is off the site with advertising.

JS